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Catalan Referendum

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#176: Oct 4th 2017 at 12:14:50 PM

Just take a look at how Quebec's referendum went...

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#177: Oct 4th 2017 at 12:51:15 PM

[up][up] The point is that in a referendum like this, there would have been a regional result reached in a legal manner one could have used for further argumentations.

And the Spaniards who happen to life in Catalonia sure as hell should have a say in this.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#178: Oct 4th 2017 at 1:13:15 PM

They could have voted? Unless I missed you having to do a Catalan Language test to vote, a cursory glance on the Internet tells me everyone who is registered to life (or is abroad and has their last registered residence) in Catalonia was eligible to vote. (Provided they were otherwise citizens of voting age and eligible to partake in the democratic process)

And given that "Spain is indivisible" has been explicitly written in the constitution how exactly do you give a bigger referendum any bigger chance of being accepted by Madrid?

edited 4th Oct '17 1:15:10 PM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#179: Oct 4th 2017 at 2:12:51 PM

[up][up] They could have voted and many did, even the referendum question had a Spanish and English translation for those who couldn't speak Catalan, but lived in the area nonetheless.

Life is unfair...
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#180: Oct 4th 2017 at 2:17:49 PM

@Swanpride: I did say "Spanish (who don't live in Catalonia)" for a reason, y'know. Legal concerns aside, a nationwide referendum still stinks — why should people who don't live in Catalonia have a say about that?

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#181: Oct 4th 2017 at 3:18:39 PM

@Quag, Yeah its messy, I consider the unilateral declaration an inevitable consequence of the central government's actions though, if your roommate says he's going to go to his room and think about moving out and you punch him it's no surprise that he may decide fuck it and leave there and then.

None of this is good, if we really do get an independence decleraiton in the next few days things are going to get messy.

[up]X4 Do you have a source on non-Catalonian living in Catalonian being denied the right to vote in the referendum? Because that's a big claim you're making.

edited 4th Oct '17 3:19:53 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#182: Oct 4th 2017 at 3:45:18 PM

Many people who would have voted no didn't vote in the referendum because it was illegal.

Most of the people that voted were because they felt strongly about Catalonian independence and were willing to risk voting in an illegal referendum.

On top of that, the votes were counted by the same people that want independence. It was not at all impartial.

There are no good guys in this situation.

The way that Spain handled things was stupid and brutal, what Catalonia did was sketchy, illegal and potentially even corrupt.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#183: Oct 4th 2017 at 3:48:15 PM

I have to say there's a fair degree of stupidity in the people who accepted the "it's illegal, so it's fine to not take part" idea. At best a woeful naivety about how the situation would come out, at worst not caring about their own future.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#184: Oct 4th 2017 at 3:50:42 PM

[up][up] Wait, they didn't use impartial vote counter like is normally done? Can I get a source on that, because yeah, that's sketchy as fuck.

But yeah, the refurendum is far from a mandate, it was done improperly and had such a low turnout that it simply can't be taken to mean anything.

edited 4th Oct '17 3:51:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#185: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:27:33 PM

On another note, just how friendly/awful is the Catalan Independence Movement towards non-Catalan residents (either immigrants and their children from outside Spain, or residents from other regions of Spain)? Are they closer to the Scottish National Party(generally just a regionalist party that has no issues with minorities in their own backyard) or the Parti Quebecois (who have way too many ethno/linguist/cultural nationalists within their ranks for comfort)?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#186: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:36:56 PM

From the fact they apparently wrote the referendum in English and Spanish as well, I'm going to hazard a guess they're closer to the SNP.

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#187: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:43:20 PM

[up][up]Both types of factions can be found within the general movement, really (especially the further you deal with the people on the streets. There have also been cases of a few hardcore pro-independence Catalans not speaking with the Spanish who don't know (or even say any kind of greetings in) Catalan.

In light of what Franco did to their language, though, I can understand the wounds here, tho.

That being said, they're usually friendly towards people from abroad who are genuinely interested in their language and/or history and culture. On the other hand, there have also recent debates about the huge influx of tourists who decharacterize the local way of life and culture, and cause a certain economic imbalance (e.g. housing, expensive rents, you know the drill).

In any case, the political-economical leanings between most parties that support the Catalan independence are somewhere near the SNP.'s political and economic coordinates.

edited 4th Oct '17 6:47:49 PM by Quag15

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#188: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:44:15 PM

Wait, they didn't use impartial vote counter like is normally done? Can I get a source on that, because yeah, that's sketchy as fuck. But yeah, the refurendum is far from a mandate, it was done improperly and had such a low turnout that it simply can't be taken to mean anything.

Puigdemont himself announced that the results were "impressive" and that he'd take it to the Parlament... BEFORE the results were announced. Even the international observers called by the Generalitat itself concluded that the entire referendum had no guarantees.

Not only that, but there are videos of ballot boxes being full before being at the polling station, people voting in ballot boxes BEFORE they were put in the polling stations and citizens voting two, three or four times at different polling stations.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-10-01/irregularidades-votaciones-referendum-cataluna_1453255/

In any case, the political-economical leanings between most parties that support the Catalan independence are somewhere near the SNP.'s political and economic coordinates.

I disagree. The P De CAT is very much the centre-right party of Catalonia as the real successor of Ci U. Esquerra is far more left-wing than the SNP... and the CUP or Asamblea Nacional Catalana are anti-capitalist. Firmly.

edited 4th Oct '17 6:47:18 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#189: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:46:58 PM

[up] Perchance is there a source on that in English? I've seen the same claims on both the Brexit referendum and the Scottish independence referendum in the past.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#190: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:47:29 PM

Man, had Madrid just let this go without beating people in the street, the voting process would have been (rightfully) called out as a sham around the world and in all but the most hardcore nationalist circles. Idiots played right into their hand.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#191: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:50:20 PM

[up] It was going to end up in this position sooner or later unless Madrid finally agreed to a legally binding referendum, which seems incredibly doubtful. Simply ignoring and condemning it without sanctioning one with legal impact would merely make it take longer to get to this point.

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#192: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:52:00 PM

Perchance is there a source on that in English? I've seen the same claims on both the Brexit referendum and the Scottish independence referendum in the past.

There's a video in the article itself, where you see someone accidentally drop a ballot box... and the lid opens up, scattering papers from within. There's a picture of the same person in four different polling stations.

As for an english source, I can't find one at the moment, but there are plenty of Spanish sources.

edited 4th Oct '17 6:57:51 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#193: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:54:37 PM

The P De CAT is very much the centre-right party of Catalonia as the real successor of Ci U. Esquerra is far more left-wing than the SNP... and the CUP or Asamblea Nacional Catalana are anti-capitalist. Firmly.

P De CAT was where Artur Mas was/is, right (since he was part of C i U)? Hence why I had said most, because I was aware of his positions.

Fair enough. It is true that there's a greater left-left presence within Catalunya than in most other regions in Europe that have pro-independence peoples from their respective States. Though I'd still argue that Esquerra seem to be basically the equivalent of the Left Bloc here (though the Left Bloc does not have economic liberalists amongst any of their factions, while Esquerra seems to have some).

edited 4th Oct '17 6:57:48 PM by Quag15

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#194: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:55:15 PM

[up][up][up]A smart government would use that time to build up goodwill, or at least generate enough anxiety to suppress the yes turnout and drive no turnout out of fear.

Madrid ain't smart though.

edited 4th Oct '17 6:55:29 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#195: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:55:28 PM

Given that the limit of what I can do in Spanish is on the level of "tell people my name", I'm just unable to draw any sort of firm conclusion without context.

And I'm really sceptical of the possibility of doctored film.

[up] Madrid is outright stupid. This was the worst way to handle anything.

[up][up] Yeah, the SNP talks big about being left-wing and then... isn't. It legislates for more public spending etc., but since it doesn't have responsibility over taxes... sore points there.

edited 4th Oct '17 6:56:58 PM by RainehDaze

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#196: Oct 4th 2017 at 6:57:39 PM

There is a serious lack of alternative information on what has been happening before and at the polling stations in international sources. Sorry that I can't offer more other than this.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506858911_482600.html

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#197: Oct 4th 2017 at 7:03:01 PM

That, at least, confirms what was already clear—it wasn't run like a normal vote. At the same time, half of that was because of all the efforts taken to suppress it, which hardly surprises me.

What does surprise me is that apparently envelopes are important. They aren't remotely involved in UK votes... [lol]

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#198: Oct 4th 2017 at 7:44:16 PM

There's always google translate, but honestly the pictures and the linked English language article are enough for me.

What a fucking shitshow, they'd have a better mandate by arguing that as they all ran on openly pro-independence platforms and got a majority that's a mandate.

The Spanish government needs to make a sane statement and offer, by that I mean offer a real refurendum, with a minimum turnout requirement and percentage threashold for independence to occur. Likewise the Catalonian government needs to state that that's what it is after, a properly done fair refurendum.

Neither side will do that of course, because that would be to fucking easy.

edited 4th Oct '17 7:44:51 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#199: Oct 4th 2017 at 7:55:28 PM

In all honesty? The actual conduct of the referendum doesn't matter so much to me at this stage. The consistent response from Madrid being "ignore it, then stop it" to the point of physical violence and the all-but-inevitable suspending any autonomy because of a document half my father's age with no foresight for potential challenges is nauseating. They've had years to actually prepare a proportionate response to this and engage with it. Yet... nothing with no indication they're going to take steps to avoid a military crackdown and denial of all autonomy because people tried to be democratic about it.

And this despite the fact that I hate independence movements. Madrid couldn't have done it worse.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#200: Oct 4th 2017 at 8:03:29 PM

Wonder what Juan Carlos thinks of this whole shitshow.

"I've only been retired for four years, and you've already managed to fuck things up!"

Disgusted, but not surprised

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