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3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#601: Dec 22nd 2017 at 11:15:39 AM

Poland has been doing this for a while now, while the Catalan thing only really escalated so hard in the second half of '17.

Poland also has repeatedly ignored EU agreements (the most notable being during the refugee crisis which was a strain on other EU countries)

The EU has for a long time tried to get Poland to be reasonable and has now finally reached the point we are now.

Are you implying Spain not getting the same time to sort itself out wouldn't be an Double Standard?

edited 22nd Dec '17 11:16:06 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#602: Dec 22nd 2017 at 11:20:45 AM

Pretty much everything in the EU takes a long time.

So are things just keep going on n a stalemate in Catalonia? Seems like a both sides have a reached a point where there are no winning moves.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#603: Dec 22nd 2017 at 11:47:38 AM

[up][up] "Sending riot police to beat up voters, then suspending local rule and going for new elections (because the last ones didn't count)" is a bit more immediate than the creeping "let's fuck things up" thing that's been going over in Poland, AFAICT.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#604: Dec 22nd 2017 at 12:13:10 PM

[up]Yeah, but again, the EU is incredibly slow about getting anything done. Hungary and Poland have both been laughing in their faces for years, and Spain has the law half on their side. (Remember that Catalonia does not have the right to unilaterally secede, even if the PP went completely bugfuck insane in trying to shut down the vote.)

Like I said before, the independence movement's best move is not electoral politics.

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#605: Dec 22nd 2017 at 12:16:53 PM

[up]Well, if they do the whole "replace the current independentist president and have new elections" schtick again, I'm going to be very disappointed if the EU does nothing.

It would be a blantant violation and disrespect for democracy, worse than Poland's recent actions.

edited 22nd Dec '17 12:42:31 PM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#606: Dec 22nd 2017 at 12:23:05 PM

[up][up] There are two levels here.

  1. The "is" level. This is where the EU is slow, justice doesn't necessarily happen, etc.
  2. The "ought" level. This is where the EU should come down on blatantly anti-democratic moves by its member states equally (or none at all).
The first is what happens, while the second is what (I, people) want to happen.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#607: Dec 22nd 2017 at 3:52:35 PM

[up][up]Then what would you have the Spanish government do if the Catalan government declares independence again? ("Let them go" is a completely unreasonable answer.)

edited 22nd Dec '17 3:52:48 PM by Ramidel

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#608: Dec 22nd 2017 at 4:29:26 PM

edited 25th Mar '18 3:52:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#609: Dec 22nd 2017 at 5:14:10 PM

[up][up] I'd offer them a legal referendum that requires a majority of the electorate voting yes to carry through. Actually, doing that now would probably be a better idea than going "IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU VOTED".

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#610: Jan 1st 2018 at 11:51:47 PM

[up]Never hold a vote that you can't accept any outcome for (and Spain won't accept Catalan independence).

[up][up]You'd still probably need to at the very least take police action to enforce such things as tax collection. (If Catalonia has declared independence, then pro-independence Catalans will not be paying taxes to Madrid, for example.)

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#611: Jan 2nd 2018 at 12:50:42 AM

edited 25th Mar '18 3:53:02 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#612: Jan 2nd 2018 at 4:22:16 AM

You have to fulfil certain rules in order to join the EU. Spain hasn't broken said rules. Everything the government has done was well within the law which was already established when it joined. Poland on the other hand is trying to change it very constitution in a way, that it would undermine the judicative. That is not a small matter, because it would change Poland into a non-democratic state, and it would be a breach of EU basic rules.

In short: One state went against EU basic law, the other went a little bit overboard. Which is why the EU very openly took a stand against Poland, but didn't do the same with Spain (what happened behind closed doors is another matter).

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#613: Jan 29th 2018 at 2:38:10 AM

https://www.ft.com/content/2014f52c-042f-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

It looks like some pro-separatists factions are willing to put Puigdemont aside as their leader since he's not allowed to be in power since he's not in Catalonia.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#614: Jan 29th 2018 at 3:40:58 AM

edited 25th Mar '18 3:53:16 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#615: Jan 29th 2018 at 2:01:12 PM

[up]Such a thing is not allowed. The elected president has to be physically present within the Catalan Parliament. At the moment, Puigdemont is trying to find a way to be there without getting promptly arrested due to the things he's charged with, according to the Constitution(al Court), iirc.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#616: Jan 31st 2018 at 8:18:52 AM

I suppose that rules out leading the Parliament from prison either.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#617: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:06:59 AM

There's more protests and clashes with police this time with new leaders being arrested for separatists charge.

Some leaders are entertaining the idea of Swiss-style democracy as a plan B.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#618: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:11:57 AM

edited 25th Mar '18 3:53:25 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#619: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:23:44 AM

Only info I got is using Plan B for decentralizing power in case getting independence is not going to work at all.

Puigdemont was last reported to be in Helsinki, but left after talking to Finnish students in a university after the NBI publicly mentioned that they're checking about "allegations" that he was in the country after hearing from Spanish LE.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#620: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:02:15 AM

He’s crossed into Germany and been arrested by German police.

Becuse apparently German police think that call for resistance to an authoritarian central government using exesive violence is bad.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#621: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:04:49 AM

[up] It's the expected stance of standing up for one their fellow EU members and preventing infighting.

Life is unfair...
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#622: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:07:47 AM

He got sanctuary in Belgium, so no it’s not an EU wide thing.

If they believe that using illegal violence to crush calls for self-determination is okay then they can adopt that stance, but they have to own that that’s their stance.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#623: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:11:12 AM

edited 25th Mar '18 3:53:37 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#624: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:18:33 AM

What exactly is he being charged with, anyway?

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#625: Mar 25th 2018 at 7:20:06 AM

Sedition and rebellion, I believe.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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