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"Sending riot police to beat up voters, then suspending local rule and going for new elections (because the last ones didn't count)" is a bit more immediate than the creeping "let's fuck things up" thing that's been going over in Poland, AFAICT.
Yeah, but again, the EU is incredibly slow about getting anything done. Hungary and Poland have both been laughing in their faces for years, and Spain has the law half on their side. (Remember that Catalonia does not have the right to unilaterally secede, even if the PP went completely bugfuck insane in trying to shut down the vote.)
Like I said before, the independence movement's best move is not electoral politics.
Well, if they do the whole "replace the current independentist president and have new elections" schtick again, I'm going to be very disappointed if the EU does nothing.
It would be a blantant violation and disrespect for democracy, worse than Poland's recent actions.
edited 22nd Dec '17 12:42:31 PM by Grafite
Life is unfair...![]()
There are two levels here.
- The "is" level. This is where the EU is slow, justice doesn't necessarily happen, etc.
- The "ought" level. This is where the EU should come down on blatantly anti-democratic moves by its member states equally (or none at all).
Never hold a vote that you can't accept any outcome for (and Spain won't accept Catalan independence).
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You'd still probably need to at the very least take police action to enforce such things as tax collection. (If Catalonia has declared independence, then pro-independence Catalans will not be paying taxes to Madrid, for example.)
You have to fulfil certain rules in order to join the EU. Spain hasn't broken said rules. Everything the government has done was well within the law which was already established when it joined. Poland on the other hand is trying to change it very constitution in a way, that it would undermine the judicative. That is not a small matter, because it would change Poland into a non-democratic state, and it would be a breach of EU basic rules.
In short: One state went against EU basic law, the other went a little bit overboard. Which is why the EU very openly took a stand against Poland, but didn't do the same with Spain (what happened behind closed doors is another matter).
https://www.ft.com/content/2014f52c-042f-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5
It looks like some pro-separatists factions are willing to put Puigdemont aside as their leader since he's not allowed to be in power since he's not in Catalonia.
Only info I got is using Plan B for decentralizing power in case getting independence is not going to work at all.
Puigdemont was last reported to be in Helsinki, but left after talking to Finnish students in a university after the NBI publicly mentioned that they're checking about "allegations" that he was in the country after hearing from Spanish LE.
He’s crossed into Germany and been arrested by German police.
Becuse apparently German police think that call for resistance to an authoritarian central government using exesive violence is bad.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
It's the expected stance of standing up for one their fellow EU members and preventing infighting.
He got sanctuary in Belgium, so no it’s not an EU wide thing.
If they believe that using illegal violence to crush calls for self-determination is okay then they can adopt that stance, but they have to own that that’s their stance.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Poland has been doing this for a while now, while the Catalan thing only really escalated so hard in the second half of '17.
Poland also has repeatedly ignored EU agreements (the most notable being during the refugee crisis which was a strain on other EU countries)
The EU has for a long time tried to get Poland to be reasonable and has now finally reached the point we are now.
Are you implying Spain not getting the same time to sort itself out wouldn't be an Double Standard?
edited 22nd Dec '17 11:16:06 AM by 3of4
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