Catalan Referendum

The Kingdom of Spain has a region called Catalonia. Its relationship to the realm is similar to that of Scotland to the UK, except that Catalonia was annexed by force after supporting the wrong side on the War of the Spanish Succession, and refusing to renege on that allegiance upon being conquered. It is not acknowledged as a separate country. They attempted to achieve independence, or at least autonomy, during the Second Republic, but, again, they backed the losing side in the Civil War that ensued. After each defeat, the Spanish central government made further efforts to erase Catalonia as a separate identity, starting by forbidding the usage of their language in official documents, at school, and in public settings, causing much resentment.

After Franco died, the separatist forces in Catalonia struck a deal with the heirs of the dictatorship: they would remain in the country in exchange for more autonomy. A new Constitution was the legal incarnation of that and other compromises.

However, frustration grew as populists in both the Unionist side in Madrid and the Separatist side in Barcelona stoked nationalist/patriotic sentiment against each other.

Things have finally come to a head when the Catalan government declared they would attempt a proper referendum on Catalonian independence, in defiance of the Constitution's legality, which proclaims Spain to be indivisible. The Unionist forces in Madrid have since resorted to repressive methods worthy of a Police State (or of Franco's own Dictatorship) to stop the referendum from happening. Here are the latest headlines:

• The Express: Catalonia referendum: Spain sends ARMED POLICE to hunt for ballot boxes to BLOCK vote. ARMED police in Catalonia are on the hunt for voting papers, ballot boxes and leaflets as part of a desperate Spanish government bid to quash the upcoming independence referendum.
• The Telegraph: Spain threatens to cut funding for Catalonia over independence referendum.
• Spain’s Guardia Civil in search of census cards and polling supervisor notices: Protest in front of one of the offices raided near Barcelona: now private delivery services are being intercepted and their offices are being registered (allegedly without a warrant), to try to avoid polling-supervisor notices getting to private citizens

"Spain threatens to cut funding"

lol. Isn't this whole referendum about Catalonia cutting funding to Spain?

I wonder if the Catalan independence movement have a plan for after the referendum. I mean, Rajoy is right that he's made sure that the result will have no legitimacy (because he's forced anyone who isn't serious about this to stay home), but as I understand it, the majority of the Catalan population currently want both sides to stop stirring the pot. The population's attitude toward a successful "yes" is likely to be :|, and that kills the JpS' chances of being able to organize any effective actions (such as a general strike).

edited 20th Sep '17 5:25:14 PM by Ramidel

The strongly constitutionalist paper El País also has their view on the Catalonian referendum.

It's not stirring the pot to want a referendum to just be done, even the UK let Scotland have it, and Catalonia has a much better claim to it, as evidenced by its history and the fact that it could already be its own entity, if not for the brutal dictatorship side of Franco winning the war.

edited 25th Sep '17 8:38:55 AM by TheHandle

As of now, the Catalan Police is now under direct oversight from Madrid, although a lot of people aren't pleased with it.

Government insists that it's for better coordination.

@Grafite: From the perspective of the majority, the constant back-and-forth provocations are indeed pot-stirring. It's not just the referendum - for example, that bullfighting ban a while ago, and the Constitutional Court overruling that, just made both sides look really stupid to anyone not involved. (Whatever your opinion on bullfighting, it's impossible to argue that it wasn't a blatant pissing match.)

I do not support Catalan independence at all (although the silver lining would be that Spanish national sports teams would become irrelevant, that's something), but Rajoy handled that with...let's say Cameron-esque flair. What an idiot. He is doing everything he can to make independentists angry and committed.

Police officers recruited from other parts of Spain are conducting building to building searches to secure places suspected of hiding more ballots and arrest anyone trying to hide there to be used as makeshift poll stations.

They also stopped a convoy of tractors from Barcelona.

Man, this crackdown will probably guarantee that Catalonia will break off, at some point and in some fashion, eventually. This is causing a lot of bad blood, and people have long memories.

Like, Ottawa and London had their share of screw ups towards Quebec and Scotland, but allowing the process to go forward was key (especially in the former case) in sapping the separatist movement's will to fight on in the short-medium term.

edited 30th Sep '17 7:55:34 AM by Rationalinsanity

Yeah, after seeing that despicable crackdown, I'm in support of independence. Fuck the Spanish government and their contempt for referenda.

If you fear voting so much, you deserve to crumble and perish.

And on the other side of the situation:

Thousands take to streets of Madrid to protest Catalan independence vote

Noteworthy in that they aren't exactly fans of Rajoy either, since they blame his party for letting the whole mess get this far.

And here's another editorial from El Pais arguing why people shouldn't even bother to vote in the referendum:

Why citizens should not go out to vote in Catalonia on Sunday

edited 30th Sep '17 9:21:06 AM by M84

Oh sure. It's illegitimate because a law that makes changing laws illegal is in place. How convenient.

Lawful Stupid was never endearing.

There's also this bit:

This referendum seems less transparent and less well-organized than a vote for student council president.

edited 30th Sep '17 9:38:46 AM by M84

Yeah, under the line the Brexit referendum is more representative of the issue than this is gonna be.

It's less organised because it's being suppressed for being illegal. So when whatever messy result comes out is inevitably for independence the Spanish government will say that it was illegal and poorly conducted therefore it doesn't count, the rebuttal will be that if you're confident it's only because it was done wrong why aren't you allowing a legitimate one etc.

This is only going to exacerbate matters.

Though the Spanish government in general doesn't seem to like self-determination.

They cannot do in tranparently with government thugs raiding polling stations. This is victim blaming.

And at least Brexit was simply a matter of invoking a (poorly written) exit clause in a treaty. Independence here is uncharted waters. It'd be like California or Texas secessionist morons pushing for a referendum.

On the one hand, a free, fair and clear vote should be held on these issues. That said, I'm not in favor of unilateral independence declarations, at least in stable democracies. If a Yes vote (which should definitely be more than 50%+1, probably 60-66% IMO, with substantial turnout requirements) does occur in such a case, both sides should be mature enough to sit down and work out a stable and equitable split.

Of course, Madrid isn't exactly being mature here. But breaking out unilaterally won't do Catalonia any good.

Votes are gonna start, but police crackdown is intensifying and they recruited local Catalan officers to help out and find regional officials who support the referendum.

As of now, they brought out the heavy guns by summoning anti-riot units from other police forces, including the Unidad de Intervención Policial. They're using rubber bullets and brute force to force their way into makeshift polling stations and arresting anyone trying to block their way.

edited 1st Oct '17 3:31:25 AM by Ominae

Apparently it's okay to break the law (rubber bullets are illegal in Catalonia) in the name of "protecting the law". And to attack peaceful voters, nonetheless. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

edited 1st Oct '17 5:21:59 AM by Grafite

Now I'm wondering if a referendum for California or Texas secession would be met with a similar response here in the USA.

I would hope that the US president would respond by saying the referendum was non-binding or talk with the Texan/Californian government and make some deal, instead of ordering ballots to be taken away and protesters fired at.

You expect that kind of measured restraint from Trump?

I don't expect such a referendum for either state for a long time, and if Trump is still president by then, then something has gone horribly wrong.

But still, maybe he could learn from the mistakes of the Spanish government if anything like that happened under his watch. Maybe...