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Why The Tolerance of Communism?

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RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#126: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:34:33 AM

Still, I haven't seen a sudden shift for it to be acceptable to endorse Stalinism any more than it's ever been rather than the entire conceptual movement. It's more acceptable than Nazism purely because of not being the enemy or having genocide as a key policy.

So if it that has become more accepted, I think it can be put down to Mc Carthyism getting ever more distant and an end of the Red Scare and Cold War.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:37:58 AM

[up][up] Ah, so you are working with a personal definition of Socialism deriving from originalist Marxist thought. That's fine, but that's not the definition that most people I know of use, so if we're going to be able to communicate, let's at least be honest about what we're discussing. You don't get to claim unique privilege over the word.

Can you name an existing Socialist state by your definition? Are we in pure theory or do we get to insert reality into this conversation?

edited 15th Sep '17 7:38:54 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#128: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:40:24 AM

And by that definition, what the hell was the UK before Thatcher and privatisation?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#129: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:40:54 AM

Communism overall has a relatively better rep than Nazism because its fans have a much easier time 'splaining away the atrocities that occurred under Communist regimes. Usually using a No True Scotsman argument.

It probably "helps" that most Communist regimes mostly stuck to screwing over their own people instead of other countries. This makes it easier for the likes of those morons Ambar mentioned to idolize Mao and Stalin.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#130: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:49:42 AM

so you are working with a personal definition of Socialism deriving from originalist Marxist thought. That's fine, but that's not the definition that most people I know of use, so if we're going to be able to communicate, let's at least be honest about what we're discussing. You don't get to claim unique privilege over the word.

...

This definition is not only not personal, it comes from a body of work that encompasses more than just Marxist thought. Shit, I'm not a Marxist, so why the heck are you suggesting I'm directly influenced by it?

And I won't address your accusations of dishonesty and privilege. You're not dealing with what I've written, and your constant proclamations of reality are not a good sign to me.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#131: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:51:03 AM

your constant proclamations of reality are not a good sign to me.

Why, because you'd rather discuss pure theory divorced from reality? Knock yourself out, like I said. But I'm not going to play the game that way. I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, but I am accusing you of claiming special privilege for your argument.

edited 15th Sep '17 7:52:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#132: Sep 15th 2017 at 7:53:18 AM

[up]I think you'll find that most of what I've talked about in this thread also involves History. Unless you're suggesting that the history of political thought and action within the 19th and 20th centuries is not reality, which would be a daft statement to make (I'm confident you won't make that mistake).

Your accusation is not legitimate to me. Throughout this thread, I've mentioned, in passing, various stripes of socialist and communist thought (including those of a non-Marxist type), and some of the historical paths pro-socialist action has gone through (and wide-ranging events such as the French Revolution, which influenced various types of left-wing thinking). I'm talking History here, which I don't own it, because I observe History (and offer my perspective on it - I don't claim it as being the final word, especially since there are people (both here and IRL) better informed on it than you or I).

EDIT: For clarity.

edited 15th Sep '17 8:04:03 AM by Quag15

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#133: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:05:20 AM

"Also, you seem to be viewing it from a pragmatic point of view (in both regimes people die, no difference), when I see it as a moral issue: in a Nazi regime, if they win, society is full of hatred and anyone born different is dead or in exile, in a communist regime, everyone is equal. "

when thing turn pragmatic is when it turn moral because one the dictatorship is in ful swing is when violation to human right start showing up.

"I find it interesting that in a thread that asked why we are more tolerant of Communism than of fascism people are defending socialism. Socialism is not Communism. Socialist policy can be implemented via democratic means. Communism, by its nature as an ideology, calls for violent revolution—and in practice sees the installation of Stalinist (or Maoist) dictatorship at the end. "

socialist ideas, influence and policy put in a democracy, but socialist in hard core end like my coutry: a ecomic skinhole that drag everything into is path, and yet to see why comunist should be tolerare in public space in a way facism isn, it seen more comon response is that facism just look more awfull.

I wonder in the future people use my country venezuela to said socialism in pratice cannot be cut for socialist in theory.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#134: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:16:00 AM

[up] Socialism's hardcore defenders will simply pin the blame on Chavez and Maduro for mishandling socialism. They will insist that it could totally work if someone more competent and less corrupt handled it. Or they will try to claim Venezuela wasn't "real" socialism. Or they will claim like Maduro does that Venezuela's problems are all America's fault.

If that sounds a bit like Communism's die-hard fans, well...yeah.

edited 15th Sep '17 10:16:54 AM by M84

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RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
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#135: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:17:24 AM

I think Venezuala's use as such a warning is quite limited because of the oil and imports things. You can point to the economic system if you want but a country reliant on imports for nearly everything and oil exports has a massive single point of failure.

edited 15th Sep '17 10:18:18 AM by RainehDaze

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#136: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:19:54 AM

[up][up]I said this because people int he thread said that nazism is a ideology that have not place in the market of ideas and it should be push and not allow spaces it, I im asking why there is somewhat pasive aceptence of comunism and socialism who have is fair share of brutality, I feel is ore because nazism is a personal thing for US when comunisnt come to a point of being a worthy oponent in cold war.

[up]a lot of problem come with centralization and masive use of the state, that venezuela is petro-dictatorship is another thing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#137: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:23:14 AM

As for why Communists are tolerated to the point that college clubs with dumbass posters of Mao and Stalin are a thing while Neo-Nazi college clubs with posters of Hitler are not nearly as tolerated...well, it boils down to WWII.

Communists did horrible shit too, but at least they mostly kept it in their own borders. The Nazis shat over everyone. And they weren't nearly as good at hiding their genocide.

If the Cold War had gone hot, Communists would be hated just as much as Nazis.

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RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#138: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:24:55 AM

That and the Red Scare in the US is not fondly remembered.

Continue writing our story of peace.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#139: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:26:02 AM

I im asking why there is somewhat pasive aceptence of comunism and socialism who have is fair share of brutality,

Forgot to address this.

Anyway, one slight difference is that the brutality is more of a bug than a feature of communism and socialism. One that keeps cropping up. In Nazism, brutality is the core feature.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#140: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:27:58 AM

Maybe is just me but I always feel the nazis are that achivement the US did and coudnt shut up about it, like that guy who make a good move once and it goes about how it was awsome and shit.

[up]problem with that is it make feel brutality is kinda just....there "oh the holomodor? well it was a mistake guy, everyone comit genocide everyone and while...." "oh yeah the japanise comit horrible atrocities and they workship the perpetrators.....that mao did what? but that portrait is so nice...."

Is just.....UGH.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
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#141: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:29:21 AM

[up]a lot of problem come with centralization and masive use of the state, that venezuela is petro-dictatorship is another thing

Generally, the argument against socialism should be an economic one because it's an economic system.

It's a lot harder to use Venezuela as a typical case when it's tied so strongly to the dollar value of oil, since at that point you're more arguing how much capitalism could have done to avoid this outcome.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#142: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:29:31 AM

[up][up] As someone who despises Mao, it frustrates me too.

edited 15th Sep '17 10:29:39 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#143: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:41:10 AM

[up][up]but is also political, socialism, specially here in latin america is atractive because past injustice before, part of chavez usual theme is that he was bringing back Oil to us, the people(feel free to read that in DKR Bane voice) Venezuela is a petro dictatorship similar to russia, just that once Chavez die everyone was a guillbable moron and crash the system(which is why evil overlord need someone competent instead of mooks).

for me chavez should be the end of nacional socialism(not, not that kind) as whole.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#144: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:45:35 AM

Anyway, one slight difference is that the brutality is more of a bug than a feature of communism and socialism. One that keeps cropping up. In Nazism, brutality is the core feature.
It's also a bug that I'm inclined to believe has more to do with the nature of dictatorship than what economic theory the dictatorship follows, as dictatorship is an inherently brutal form of governance, and revolution has a bad habit of producing dictatorship.

Somehow, I don't think that a Stalin or Mao dictatorship wouls have been any less brutal if they were capitalist dictators.

Then again, there's a reason I favor reform/evolution to revolution and consider any route that thinks dictatorship is a necessary step to be unacceptable.

Also, needless to say, I have no love for the likes of Stalin and Mao.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
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#145: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:50:24 AM

[up][up] I'm not sure I see your point. Venezuela's situation can only be used as an argument against socialism if you can prove that capitalism would by nature have avoided the same fate. And for that we need to wait and look at the long-term outcome of the gulf states.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#146: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:54:10 AM

[up]Venezuela have state capitalism long before chavez raised is damn ugly head, and it did things without being authoritariam, so yeah I belive it can be pin to socialist policy.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
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#147: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:22:17 AM

[up][up]

If you want more examples, you can take a look at Argentina and Brazil after the governments of Dilma Rousseff and Cristina Kichne -who were not dissimilar from Hugo Chavez in ideology-. Both countries are still reeling from economical crisis and they are having a slow recovery.

[up][up][up] Neither do I, specially Mao because his ideas were the inspiration for a monster called Abimael Guzman to carry out decades of terrorism inside my country, killing people from the countryside and the city alike.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#148: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:39:24 AM

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#149: Sep 15th 2017 at 12:09:50 PM

Do you have an explanation for how he's wrong? Well, I suppose what you mean is his conflation of Communism with Stalinism, but it's not like we have a lot of counterexamples to go with.

Honestly, Fighteer, I didn't really have Stalinism in mind when I wrote that. I was thinking of post-1918 Russia under Lenin, as well as the Cold War régimes of the mid-20th century. But even leaving Stalinism aside, I think it's entirely fair to conflate Communism with Leninism, Maoism, Castroism, the eras of Brezhnev, Husák, and Ulbricht, etc. By their fruits shall ye know them.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#150: Sep 15th 2017 at 12:13:38 PM

Excepting Leninism, which predates it, all the states you just listed are Stalinist. Despite what Mao's fans would say, he had far more in common with Stalin than not, and any political differences between the two stem more from the cultural contexts of Russia vs China than anything else. In the end Stalinism became the prototype for Communist states, and Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, et al, set up their own dictatorships accordingly.


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