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Why The Tolerance of Communism?

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DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#651: Apr 5th 2018 at 5:18:38 PM

Well, it's a little bit like calling Trump a conservative. You may be painting with too broad a stroke.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#652: Apr 5th 2018 at 6:08:33 PM

I am not sure if the problem is whether we are painting too broadly or too narrowly.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#653: Apr 5th 2018 at 6:15:57 PM

It's more that calling Trump a conservative tells you almost nothing important about him.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#654: Apr 5th 2018 at 7:29:04 PM

Wrong thread, sorry.

edited 5th Apr '18 7:35:22 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#655: Apr 5th 2018 at 7:40:29 PM

“And it wound up being nothing more than the usual Communist dictatorship with an Islamist paint job.“

Somewhere a dude with a MAGA hat just had a heart attack.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#656: Apr 5th 2018 at 8:24:19 PM

Somewhere a dude with a MAGA hat just had a heart attack.

Then Barre has at last contributed something to the world. Beyond the Somali diaspora, that is.

edited 5th Apr '18 8:27:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#657: Apr 6th 2018 at 5:55:00 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Watch me destroying my country
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#658: Apr 6th 2018 at 6:28:05 PM

The legitimacy of Stalin and Mao’s communism wasn’t denied, the two leaders were excused, not denied.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#659: Apr 6th 2018 at 8:15:20 PM

If he already had a dump truck for,the diapers why’d he cram them into the walls and the fridge ?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#660: Apr 6th 2018 at 8:23:26 PM

[up] The idea is that he got the dump truck later.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#661: Apr 9th 2018 at 12:58:40 PM

I'm far from a supporter of Communism, but I'm going to go out on a limb and point out that every country on that image and the vast majority of communist regimes in general, were either created with or heavily influenced by support from the Soviet Union, or a state that had been by the same.

So really it's more like that specific brand of Communism has failed many, many...many times.

edited 9th Apr '18 1:00:38 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#662: Apr 9th 2018 at 1:06:47 PM

[up] And that is the only Branch that we know. The other type of it, Anarcho Communist only work when everyone is on the same page ideologically.

Most socialists don't associate themselves with Communism for a reason. The URSS and friends totally destroyed its reputation.

Watch me destroying my country
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#663: Apr 9th 2018 at 1:18:55 PM

(Of course, small scale voluntary communes and collaborative websites can also be considered as "communism" in the expanded sense)

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#664: Apr 9th 2018 at 1:23:04 PM

"Big C" communism vs. "Small c" communism?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#665: Apr 9th 2018 at 1:23:32 PM

[up][up] That's why I mentioned them.

Unless we invent a brainwashing machine to be sure that everyone is in the same page ideologically, Communism is really shitty.

edited 9th Apr '18 1:26:15 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#666: Apr 9th 2018 at 2:06:46 PM

[up]

Which, may I add, goes completely against the principles of democracy, or simply, human free will. It's better to live in a society where you might get in a discussion with others for your position for your entire live than to have no position of your choice.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#667: Apr 9th 2018 at 2:29:41 PM

I just realized a funny thing.

I've been thumped multiple times for 'trying to shift the discussion from the topic of the thread to person'. And I'm not complaining about that (Well, outside perhaps of the fact that some of my thumped posts were three paragraphs of on-topic points with one or two sentences complaining about the behaviour of another poster and those on-topic points got thumped alongside that little bit so then it looks like the entire post was about other posters), just using it as a preamble to the following:

This is funny to me, because it's really ironic that that is exactly the issue I have with the 'Stalin' and 'Mao' stuff. That it shifts the topic (not of this thread, but certainly of the general discussion) from the actual topic (Communism) to a person (the Dictator in charge).

I'm not fond of people like Stalin or Mao at all (no, really, genuinely I'm not), but I object to their demonization on the general principle that they were fellow human beings. Horrible people, but fellow human beings still. And to lay all of the sins of the massive bureaucracies they oversaw and in some situations were only barely (or not at all) able to control seems... Counter-productive in discussing Communism as a political ideology. If for no other reason than that this was something their successors also did as a way of absolving themselves of blame for their complicity and for not putting through necessary reforms to the system (under the argument of 'Stalin is dead, this solves the problem').

Communism, as a political ideology, is admirably utopian in principle, horribly oppressive in (historical) practice.

The former is what sort of rehabilitated it, the latter is why it needed rehabilitation.

Possibly necessary post-script: I was unsure whether mention the thumps and initially chose not to, but when I read my post without the mention, it sort of came off as if I was passive-aggressively talking about the thumps under the guise of talking about something tangentially related. (Though that may just have been because that tangential relation was on my mind already.) Which left me with only being able to make it clear I wasn't doing that by making mention. If that violates the rules I'd appreciate a PM so I can edit the post to remove that (and this) part, because at least then it will have been made clear and seen.

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#668: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:21:09 PM

By trying to deny or downplay the agency of Stalin and Mao in their own regimes, one is basically engaging in apologia. They were awful people. That awfulness influenced the people and policies of said regimes. One shouldn't make excuses for them by claiming they weren't in control of their own regimes or something. One also shouldn't try to claim that Communist regimes only did badly because of American interference.

There's no real way to "rehabilitate" Communism. That ship sailed long ago after millions died as a direct result of Communists fucking things up. Particularly since "innocent people dying" is something that consistently happened in Communist regimes.

edited 9th Apr '18 6:29:55 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#669: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:28:38 PM

Authoritarian governments will, by definition, be shaped by the character(s) at the centre of them. To discuss Stalinist Russia or Maoist China and not focus on the characters of Stalin and Mao is to discuss Nazi Germany while leaving out Hitler, the Young Turk regime without Enver, Talaat, or Cemal, or Pinochet's Chile without, well, Pinochet. Dictators shape their governments from the top down; even those people who were not directly appointed by the dictator will be appointed by someone who is appointed by someone who is appointed by someone who is, in the end, appointed by the dictator.

Communism, as practiced in the USSR, was irrevocably shaped by Stalin's three decades in power. Communism, as practiced in the PRC, is a product of Mao's vision for the country. Communism, as practiced in Cambodia, had more to do with Pol Pot's list of personality disorders than it did with any sort of coherent political or national planning. And so on and so forth. You cannot separate Communism in Cuba from Castro, in Ethiopia from Mengistu, in Somalia from Siad Barre, in Romania from Ceausescu, in North Korea from the Kim family, etc, etc.

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#670: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:22:29 AM

To discuss Stalinist Russia or Maoist China and not focus on the characters of Stalin and Mao is to discuss Nazi Germany while leaving out Hitler, the Young Turk regime without Enver, Talaat, or Cemal

This is somewhat of a mixed bag of false equivalence.

Hitler pretty much co-opted and became the leader of the already populist NSDAP and made it even more anti-semitic and fascist, then took power.

Whereas Stalin and Mao were essentially just middle-managers (or local leaders, if you prefer) in their respective Communist parties during their revolutions. Stalin rose to power after the state he rose to power in was already established. Mao rose to power when the KMT caught and executed most of the existing leadership, leaving him as one of the few surviving leaders. Unlike Hitler, neither of them were the architects of the systems they took charge of and both of them were as much shaped by the system before they took power as they shaped the system themselves afterwards.

At any rate, comparing the Nazis and the Russian and Chinese Communists is a false equivalence because the Nazis overthrew a democracy and replaced it with an autocratic state, where as the Russian and Chinese Communists overthrew brutal autocratic states and replaced them with (slightly) less autocratic (and, yes, also less brutal) states. (And while things would have been better if the Communists had installed democratic states instead, anyone who thinks it would initially have been much better hasn't read, or is conveniently ignoring, the human costs of other democracies installed in violent revolutions.)

And lastly, to view Stalin and Mao as representatives of the regimes they oversaw is different from putting the blame for everything the regimes they oversaw did only on them. Stalin and Mao being Stalin and Mao levels of horrible doesn't make the regime personnel under them any less murderous and corrupt.

edited 10th Apr '18 4:23:33 AM by Robrecht

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#671: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:29:01 AM

[up]

Russian and Chinese Communists overthrew brutal autocratic states and replaced them with (slightly) less autocratic (and, yes, also less brutal) states.

A claim like this would require some evidence such as statistics confirming that the bodycount and human suffering the KMT is responsible for surpassed that of Mao's Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

(And while things would have been better if the Communists had installed democratic states instead, anyone who thinks it would initially have been much better hasn't read, or is conveniently ignoring, the human costs of other democracies installed in violent revolutions.)

This is more of that "democracies are almost as bad as dictatorships" stuff again.

And lastly, to view Stalin and Mao as representatives of the regimes they oversaw is different from putting the blame for everything the regimes they oversaw did only on them. Stalin and Mao being Stalin and Mao levels of horrible doesn't make the regime personnel under them any less murderous and corrupt.

Good thing nobody was arguing that here. We're saying that Stalin and Mao are a big part of why everyone under them was so shitty.

edited 10th Apr '18 4:36:18 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#672: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:36:20 AM

There's no real way to "rehabilitate" Communism. That ship sailed long ago after millions died as a direct result of Communists fucking things up.

This is an opinion people are allowed to have. I don't fully agree, mostly I only agree with 'fucking things up'.

By which I mean: I agree they fucked up, I disagree this must automatically mean that Communists will always fuck up. On the other hand, I do think that they're very likely to fuck up. Whence 'Fine in theory, horrible in practice.'

Communism only works if everyone is on board, which is something that modern Communists should be aware of (they have no excuse not to) and which should prevent them from launching the revolution until everyone is on board. They'll probably never succeed in getting everyone on board, but as long as they don't go 'Screw it! We're launching the revolution now, everyone will have to get on board after.', which is where they went wrong in the past, there's no harm in them trying to get everyone on board as one of many parties in a democratic setting.

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#673: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:38:21 AM

[up] The thing is, they fucked up horribly. And they kept fucking up. Consistently. There are very, very few examples to the contrary. And that requires lowering one's standards. As in "they only killed thousands in purges".

The ship has sailed on Communism, and it sunk under the weight of the millions of corpses left in its wake.

edited 10th Apr '18 4:39:36 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#674: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:38:41 AM

Good thing nobody was arguing that here. We're saying that Stalin and Mao are a big part of why everyone under them was so shitty.

And all I'm saying is that everyone under them were also part of why Stalin and Mao were so shitty.

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#675: Apr 10th 2018 at 4:41:01 AM

[up] It's erroneous to blame the subordinates for a dictator's abuses. Yes, you should hold them responsible for their own misdeeds. But don't try to say things like "Mao was shitty because of his followers".

edited 10th Apr '18 4:41:22 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

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