The Orville

In terms of storytelling the series is definitely getting better, and the characters considerably more likable. It's not what I initially expected, or even what it seemed like it was presenting itself as, but it's actually not bad.

In terms of science...it's no better than To S. Just pure gobbledegook. Just to start, why would a one-gender species, which would either be asexually reproducing or hermaphroditic, have females, or even the concept of females except as Bizarre Alien Biology?

Also got a chuckle when they commented that the Generation Ship is travelling on inertia alone rather than active engines. Welcome to real space travel?

Yeah, I can ignore it. But damn man, it's 2017!

edited 7th Oct '17 9:42:23 AM by lvthn13

The show has ups and downs, episode 2 felt fresh to me, quite interesting concept, but episode 3 feels like a rehash of a dozen TNG episodes, thus my original problem: if is just going to be Star Trek but without the copyright then... why? Other shows manage to make a sci-fi Star Trek-like comedy and be something unique at the same time like Farscape. I don't know, as much as it differs from ST the most I like it, and vice versa.

It is more Star Trek than Discovery, that's for sure.

edited 6th Oct '17 9:34:04 PM by Luppercus

The fact that it is more Star Trek than Discovery is the reason why it should exist. The show is done by people who simply wanted to make more actual Star Trek.

All the old Star Trek series had their ups and downs though although even most of those downs were worthy of existing... outside of the worst of the worst.

Haven't seen this one yet but if it's on Netflix I'll hit it up soon enough.

I haven't been watching any shows for weeks now.

In terms of science...it's no better than To S. Just pure gobbledegook. Just to start, why would a one-gender species, which would either be asexually reproducing or hermaphroditic, have females, or even the concept of females except as Bizarre Alien Biology?

That's a biologist's answer which is pure gobbledegook when it enters the soft sciences.

1. We have intersex people in real life so people being born female as "one sex" is an entirely organic thing.

2. They are hermaphrodites since one lays an egg.

3. As for having a concept of females, they do because they have a baby born with only one set of parts and deal with binary sex races.

As for why they'd call themselves "male", that's clearly a cultural thing and human gender identity is just as stupid.

edited 8th Oct '17 10:50:56 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

Do what? I think you miss the point entirely.

If a species does not typically exhibit separate genders, then they'd have no cultural concept of such. The idea of what we call a female would be to them merely an omission of organs, much like a human male born with testicles but no penis. Without (enough) females to create a separate cultural experience, they'd have no reason to have a concept of femininity, and therefore nothing to socially revile as they are shown doing. Nor does it really make sense that they learned this from us, or other bisexual species, since humans certainly haven't given up male and female identity roles just by learning about the biology of earthworms and trees - and indeed, "males" of this species are actually hermaphrodites, not males. After all, we're neither earthworms nor trees - the very fact that humans have the ability to have a gender identity crisis is purely a result of being a bisexual species, biologically. If we all sported both male and female organs and always had, we'd have no concept of "manly" or "feminine", much less derogatives for a perceived failure to be one or the other.

Hell, the show even acknowledged its own shortcomings in this regard, by commenting that Alara's strength demonstrates nothing in particular since her entire species, male and female, is similarly stronger than other species. In short, making the entire thing a Broken Aesop, nevermind that the actual scenario revolves around hermaphrodites who mystifyingly label themselves "male", though that hardly seems appropriate in context.

edited 9th Oct '17 1:04:20 PM by lvthn13

Eh, I don't think it'd be as cut and dried as all that. Even someone who has both organs isn't necessarily going to want to use both. They might have a preference for which one they want to use and how they want to use it. Which in turn could still create a gender identity issue on its own. I mean, if you had an organ whose use was totally voluntary, and you didn't want to use it, would you even want to have it? If you don't want to have it, would you still want to be identified the same way other people who have it and want to use it would want to be identified?

Now that's not saying the show represents this correctly at all. It's just that there's holes where your ideas fall apart when applied to reality. I mean, the transgender movement is all about not being labeled according to your sexual organs. Why would a supposed mono-gendered, hermaphroditic species not be capable of conceiving of a single-sexed person? Heck, with the way genetics and mutations work, even in a primarily hermaphroditic species, you're going to get isolated single-sexed people who simply didn't develop the same way most others did.

Why would a single-sex alien species with no relation to earth biology even have gender at the cellular level? Why would one contribute egg and one sperm, rather than pairing similar cells that spontaneously form an egg-like structure? Or if they utilized external fertilization, why would the role matter whatsoever, since our primary hangup appears to be on the act of penetration? Further, whatever their setup, unless they attached emotional and social weight to the reproductive act on a level similar to humans, which is hardly typical among animal species even here on earth, why would it be an issue at all?

I'm unclear where my ideas are supposed to apply to reality? There are no aliens to study at this moment, and no intelligent life on earth other than ourselves - and even extending that to include any species we can effectively communicate with on any level and which has a gendered social structure, they all reproduce they same way we do, and are all therefore variations on the same theme. This is all speculation, but I don't see it as particularly believable that an alien race of hermaphrodites would identify with human male culture and take serious exception to human female culture, associating such with the lack of some of their species' typical reproductive organs. I find it more likely they'd form their own culture devoid of such concepts, much as we don't have a word in common English for being born specifically missing ovaries but possessing a vagina. Even if they did have a complex reproductive life as humans do, and even if they did form personal preferences along those lines, what are the odds that it would align in any way with our own cultural hangups?

Even in context of the show, it's borderline nonsensical. Why would Moclans have a problem with females if they're all half female by default? If it's not okay to be female, why is it okay for Bortus to lay and hatch an egg? No Moclan even implies that this was a feminine act. Strip away the science questions and it's still ridiculous.

Strip away the loaded language, namely the inaccurate gender identifiers, and it's hard to see why humans would have a problem with the situation in the first place. Certainly if a human baby were born with nonfunctioning testicles but otherwise typical male biology, and a routine procedure existed which would fully restore said testicles to reproductive viability, it would be considered a cruelty among most people not to perform that procedure.

Well, because at the end, it's all a metaphor for Earth culture and that anyone who would prefer "alien" aliens which tell us nothing about humans has kind of missed the point of Star Trek.

:)

This being about misogyny and other issues than replicating a hypothetical alien culture who DOESN'T ACT THE WAY WE THINK THEY SHOULD.

edited 9th Oct '17 9:41:09 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

That.

But aside from that it's of course entirely possible that they're not naturally single-gendered, but rather that they naturally have two genders, one with both the ability to fertilise and lay eggs and one only with the ability to lay eggs. There's reasons why a system evolving like that could make sense (for the sake of not getting off track, I'll explain why if anyone asks, but not before).

And so maybe the 'single-gender race' thing is simply a cultural thing that came about somehow and just became so ingrained that all Moclans now consider it the norm. Hell it might even have started out initially as a decision made by the females themselves, considering that if some (or half, or most) members of the species can fill both roles in conception and another portion can only fill one and then technology progresses to the point where the latter can now get surgery that lets them fill both roles, they might see getting that surgery as a means to achieve equality.

In that context, the Moclan aversion to letting their natural born daughters grow up female might originally have been motivated not by misogyny, but by opposition to early Moclan misogynists who felt that females should stay female. (And then eventually it turned into standard misogyny)

To give an example of how social norms can change like that, just look at western views on make-up in the last 200 years:
In the 18th century and early 19th century, make-up was socially acceptable for men, but women who wore make-up were viewed as morally corrupt and overly promiscuous.
Which is why in the late 19th century, (proto-)Feminists began wearing very obvious make-up to protest what they viewed as repressive and backwards notions of female sexuality.
At the start of the 20th century, make-up for men became less fashionable, and all throughout it, ideas on just how much make-up was considered acceptable or even mandatory fluctuated.
And nowadays we mostly recognise the women are well within their rights to wear as much or as little make-up as they want without being shamed for it... But when a man wears make-up we assume they must be gay or be trying to either be transgressive or feminize themselves.

Angry gets shit done.

Problem is, if your metaphor for Earth culture can't stand up to even the slightest bit of logical scrutiny, maybe its application to actual Earth culture is just as shoddy. Worse, you can preach any lesson like that, both by reshaping the laws of physics to suit your views, and consequently by stating it doesn't have to make sense even in-universe.

From what I've seen so far, the show feels like an adaptation of Galaxy Quest. I'd still take Hyperdrive as the best modern example of comedic space opera, but, well, beggars can't be choosers. And yeah, considering the franchise is just as known for its comedic moments as for its parables, this does shape up to be a better Star Trek show than ST:DIS... if only because DIS is clearly ashamed to be a Star Trek show, and wants to be a BSG spin-off instead.

I don't think the episode about Bortus' child is meant to be didactic. In the end, they fail to accomplish what they set out to do. What lesson are we supposed to take from that? That you shouldn't try to challenge irrational cultural institutions? I doubt that very much.

No, I think the episode was written as a meditation on this kind of intercultural conflict. In the end, the story is personal to both Bortus and the crew of the Orville. They don't end up overturning all of Moclan culture and society in the span a single episode. It would have felt disingenuous if they did, and I think the writers know that.

Regardless, I'm glad a show like this can exist in 2017. It's a special kind of irony to observe a show like this airing at the same time as the new Star Trek TV show. The contrast is interesting, even if they're trying to do two very different things.

edited 12th Oct '17 2:02:58 AM by Gault

yey

The big thing was it is ok for a kid to be different and hammered hard gender issues.

They even licensed Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer to get the point across with something we could relate to and a character to get as we did then applied it to genders.

Even if it’s Bizarre Alien Biology it’s still basically just as applicable to Intersex kids and other such things.

I found it a bit odd that the concept of gender identity and/or dysphoria was just sort of ignored, given all the other parallels. I think the doctor made a comment about "possible psychological harm" at one point, but other than that it's all about cultural/practical concerns instead.

Both Klyden (spelling?) and the unaltered female Moclan are seemingly just fine with the bodies they ended up with. Regardless of whether females are "natural" or not I'd have expected at least one of them to feel like something was off. I guess their species could just be agender by default or something (kind of ironic given their cultural obsession with stereotypical-contemporary-earth masculinity if that's the case) but I don't know...

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.

The episode honestly sounds like an homage to that TNG episode where the supposedly genderless character came out and said she felt female and wanted Riker. And then got their equivalent of the straight camp treatment and didn't want any of that anymore.

And it surprises me no one else drew the parallel.

Episode 3 also reminded me heavily of FGM as well.

As an episode solely talking about transgender issues as currently debated in the US, it was somewhat shoddy and not perfectly well done. But they threw in so many other related and adjacent issues into the episode, I find the episode could be better used as a metaphor for something else.

edited 12th Oct '17 4:30:44 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Question I take from tonight’s episode: Have children been on every krill vessel blown up so far?

(V)(;,,;)(V)

I think the classroom of kids being on the ship in the newest episode was supposed to be a joke, In the vein of "we can't attack that enemy base it's full of puppies and orphanages!". Problem is the characters take the situation so seriously that it seems completely believable, and doesn't seem nearly ridiculous enough to be funny.

Maybe if they took advantage of that that one kid's naive curiosity, and told him some over the top Blatant Lies about Earth instead of being totally honest about it, it could have turned into something funny. There's nothing wrong with the way they went with it though. I just don't think that was the type of tone they were trying to go for.

edited 14th Oct '17 3:48:06 PM by xanderiskander

I don't think it's suppose to be a joke. It's a "What does your paladin do with all the orc children?" dilemma.

It's also a real life drone strike concern as, "wow, it turns out ISIS has children working for them and living at their compounds."

Not at all a joke.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

This doesn't sound like a parody anymore. Sounds more like a True Fan got fed up with how Trek's been treated over the last decade or so and took matters into their own hands.

From what I've seen of episode wise, that appears to be the case. Show was sold as ST parody, but by all accounts its just Trek by way of M*A*S*H in terms of the comedy lightening up the drama.

Still waiting for a Legion of Losers movie...

They can get away with this if they go places Trek never did. But they have to be willing to flesh out their universe and dig deeper into things that Trek only ever glossed over for the sake of its morals. Otherwise they run the risk of CBS calling bullshit and suing them over a blatant knockoff.

Other than specific names and appearances, there really isn't much of anything that CBS could actually hope to win on. Both sides have smart lawyers, so both pretty much have to know that such a suit would be a losing proposition.

Given the series' creator, I was expecting something obnoxious, but this isn't bad.

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.