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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#226: Jun 25th 2022 at 7:42:54 PM

One thing I actually like is that Seth does a pretty good job as writing Mercer as a flawed man. Teleya actually even points out that one of his flaws is, "You think you're enlightened but are actually close-minded and prejudiced." Which is a bit like the Quagmire calling out Brian scene but still works.

She was a school teacher radicalized by the fact he killed every one of her friends and coworkers.

And he never really latches onto the fact that she would feel the same way as he would feel if someone killed everyone on the Orville.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 25th 2022 at 7:43:17 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#227: Jun 25th 2022 at 10:02:51 PM

I feel like this episode is an interesting rebuttal to THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY in that it kind of shows how it would go if things hadn't been so committed.

1. The Union unintentionally insult the Krill every time they open their mouths at the dinner scene. They talk about how capitalism was stupid and the Krill point out that they're still a capitalist society and doing fine. They also basically are their usual smug selves about their materialism which the Krill are trying to ignore. The Krill being their usual awful selves as well.

2. Part of what the episode does is reveal the Krill are both a lot more nuanced than we're left thinking about them as well as also still possessing the qualities that made them effective baddies. They're a capitalist democratic society rather than the authoritarian theocracy we thought they were.

3. The abortion hologram is meant to be a form of psychological torture and Mercer reacts to it as such. It's basically Seth talking about the "heartbeat test" designed to anthropomorphize a fetus and prevent abortion, though in this case it's just meant to inflict psychological guilt. If it doesn't work on an audience member because they don't think of fetuses as possessing any such qualities, it will just come off as silly. However, it's based on an RL thing.

Mercer is disgusted by it as I presume Seth is by the RL version. Ironically, it also is designed to once more highlight the Krill are NOT stereotypes. They're not executing the parents, they're trying to guilt them.

4. Part of what makes the episode good is we're continually assaulted with the casual arrogance of the Union regarding the situation. Whether this is just Seth commenting on the 2016 election or a larger point that people take for granted the progression of history is to, well, progressiveness, it is the same message.

They dismiss the possibility the Krill will legitimately vote in Teleya because they don't WANT to believe that they're that unpopular with the people. They always act as if the Krill are uncivilized savages and if they're just "shown civilization" they'll change their attitudes on everything.

5. I'm not really cool with the fact that the standing President was going to contest the election because, well, it implies that the "good" side is perfectly willing to throw democracy down the toilet when things get bad as well.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#228: Jun 26th 2022 at 12:26:20 AM

Personally I felt more similarities to Iran than to the US with all that of the Counceil of Clerics picking the chancellor after elections. The rise if authoritarianism, nationalism and need for cultural purity and identities over other countries and global society is currently in every country. Is not just Trump, you have Le Pen in France, Johnson in Britain, Wilders in Netherlands, Weidel in Germany, Abascal in Spain, Marcos in Phillipines, Erdogan in Türkiye, Putin in Russia, Lukashenko in Belarus, Ortega in Nicaragua, Maduro in Venezuela, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Bukele in El Salvador, Chaves in Costa Rica, Kast in Chile, Lopez in Mexico, Modi in India, Al Sisi in Egypt, Netanyahu in Israel, Xi in China, Hanson in Australia, Khan in Pakistan, Salman in Saudi Arabia, etc., with different degrees of success and influence. I’m probably forgetting a lot.

I think Seth as a writer is capable of distance himself enough from a work to not entirely fed his ideas on it except with Family Guy, which shows how he is indeed showing the Krill to be more sympathethic and multidimensional. Is no longer a Planet of Hats, we see different factions, cultures and ideologies.

The pro-Union chancellor wasn’t a saint. He was authoritarian even if a nicer guy than Telaya. Something that happens in real life as the Union is basically an expy of the West who often takes a blind eye on pro-Western dictators. Yes, they do elect their leaders but that’s not a guarantee for democracy as, as I mentioned, Iran does the same, and the US has also been criticized to be more of an oligarchic republic than a democracy. The limits place on free exchange of ideas and expression whether economic (you can’t pay as much for your campaign without donors or be part of a major party) or legal (you can’t attack Islam in anyway) undermine true democracy.

In any case, this is exactly what science fiction should do, makes us talk about these kind of stuffs. Good work Seth.

Edited by TVGuy on Jun 26th 2022 at 12:41:00 PM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#229: Jun 26th 2022 at 6:02:51 AM

5. I'm not really cool with the fact that the standing President was going to contest the election because, well, it implies that the "good" side is perfectly willing to throw democracy down the toilet when things get bad as well.

Really? If there are legal avenues to contest a close election and the Chancellor declares his intention to use them, I don’t see how that’s “throwing democracy down the toilet,” as long as the results are accepted when all’s said and done. That happens in RL too. Almost never works, but it happens. Teleya didn’t give him the chance, and that’s rather more toilet-hurling in this case.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#230: Jun 26th 2022 at 1:21:09 PM

Especially when she later executes him.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#231: Jun 26th 2022 at 1:23:35 PM

I took that as the Chancellor as the Trump allegory there as he demands the Grand Clerics "stop the certification."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#232: Jun 27th 2022 at 1:39:27 PM

Ah I see. The timeline was compressed for TV perhaps, but even for the characters things were happening too fast. I believe I heard the clerics say they were calling the election before all the votes had been counted. That’s fine for TV pundits but not for government officials, so I figured the Chancellor was in the right there.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#233: Jun 30th 2022 at 11:06:45 AM

New episode:

Wow. Klyden went full jackass....or rather, always was one, and just refused to change back.

One Strip! One Strip!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#234: Jun 30th 2022 at 12:36:47 PM

It's been established from Klyden's first appearance that he's a bigot and really all the attempts to reconcile have failed because he always doubles down and triples down on his bigotry.

So much so that Bortis' ex framed him for murder and almost no one went, "Yeah, that's him."

Really, I think he crossed the Moral Event Horizon long ago. Either when he insisted on Topa's surgery (which only might not cross because he, himself, did it and has internalized his cultural misogyny) or when he outright tried to murder Bortis.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#235: Jun 30th 2022 at 12:51:06 PM

If they resolve the Kaylon plot, the Moclus plot is going to immediately come into focus again, given how Moclus kinda...blackmails the entire rest of the Union into looking the other way on several pretty awful things because of the risk of the Kaylon.

The Moclans don't seem to be as necessary for dealing with the Krill, honestly.

Edited by Zendervai on Jun 30th 2022 at 3:51:58 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#236: Jun 30th 2022 at 2:11:06 PM

I find it fascinating the Union was willing to accept the Moclans and their culture of toxic masculinity up to the eleven so easily but the Krill, who are capitalist and religious, utterly confound the Union.

Like they view them as Blue-and-Orange Morality.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#237: Jun 30th 2022 at 2:50:22 PM

The impression given is overwhelmingly that the Moclans don’t give a shit about what other species do with themselves and that they also were extremely secretive about their own culture, but in ways that aren’t obvious. So the result is that before the show started, they were the toxically masculine culture that didn’t bother trying to push it on anyone else and who generally kept to themselves most of the time.

It’s not exactly hard to see why the Union would want them, given that the tradeoff to better weapons tech was having to deal with a vaguely annoying culture that wouldn’t bother pushing their values on anyone else.

The Krill, on the other hand, were basically a huge blank, attacking Union worlds with abandon and never explaining themselves beyond yelling about their religion. The Union didn’t know they were capitalist until the Krill visit to Earth, it seems.

Edited by Zendervai on Jun 30th 2022 at 5:51:39 AM

ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany Since: Dec, 2009
#238: Jun 30th 2022 at 5:08:56 PM

So far, this season doesn't pull any punches and I love it.

You lost!
Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#239: Jul 1st 2022 at 8:22:39 AM

Ah Moclus, the Hungary of the Planetary Union.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#240: Jul 1st 2022 at 10:26:13 AM

I went with, "So Moclus is Joe Manchin, huh."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242: Jul 1st 2022 at 6:40:09 PM

I wonder if Isaac predicted the Moclans would blame the Kaylons because he performed the surgery or if it's just a coincidence.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#243: Jul 1st 2022 at 6:43:54 PM

I think a decent Alternate Character Interpretation is the Moclans are choosing to interpret events that way because they do recognize the Kaylon threat and are looking for a face saving political measure.

"Ooo, we hate Isaac for this and will thus blame his entire race and not our desperately needed allies."

They were willing to break free over the krill but the Kaylon are an existential threat.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 1st 2022 at 6:44:28 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#244: Jul 1st 2022 at 6:46:32 PM

Possibly. There's a pretty good chance they're aware that they have no chance teaming up with the Krill at this point and that the Union is really not looking favourably on their antics and actions and the only reason they're getting a pass is because of the Kaylon.

And their previous thing was after the Kaylon became a threat, they just thought at the time they could team up with the Krill.

Edited by Zendervai on Jul 1st 2022 at 9:47:11 AM

Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#245: Jul 1st 2022 at 8:49:23 PM

A Moclan-Krill alliance would make sense, they're a lot alike.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246: Jul 1st 2022 at 8:59:32 PM

Alas, they have a female leader right now.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#247: Jul 2nd 2022 at 5:18:08 AM

Im pretty sure the Union had female presidents at some point.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#248: Jul 2nd 2022 at 8:37:53 AM

Yes, my impression is the Moclans are getting more radicalized as the hypocritical awfulness of their society is exposed. Which is to say, the nasty misogynists are doubling down.

But yes, you could be right. A Krill/Moclan alliance.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#249: Jul 2nd 2022 at 7:54:40 PM

It is an interesting symbolism. I don't know if intentional tho. We do have similar conflicts in our societies, like the cases of Turkey as part of NATO, or the aforementioned Hungary, not to mention such Western allies like Israel, Qatar or Saudi Arabia who do things we certainly never aprove for a Western country, but the alliance is needed against common enemies and biggest foes. Not that Im saying they're like the Moclans.

But is similar. How much does the West turns a blind eye on the treatment of women, minorities, LGBT people, Kurds or Palestinians as long as thesw allies keep supplying something or be in a strategic position against Iran, Russia or China. Isn't that hypocresy? Do you have moral ground to condemn human rights abuses in your enemies afterwards?

So the Krill are bad but the Moclans don't even if both are very similar societies. Hmmm.

Edited by Dgon on Jul 2nd 2022 at 7:55:47 AM

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#250: Jul 3rd 2022 at 9:47:51 AM

It'd be pretty stupid for the Moclans if they actually abandoned the Union to join the Krill. Because the supposed "evil" they'd be fleeing is one that seeks to change and assimilate them culturally in the worst case, in exchange for a partner that will almost certainly exterminate them once the alliance has served it's purpose. That, and I feel it's just poor writing in general, and would only serve to make the Orville's universe a bit too pessimistic - not to mention contradictory against the show's overall themes of tolerance and diversity leading to greater strength and understanding.

Also, regarding Klyden... kinda felt the writers went too far painting him as the bad guy. Yeah, he's done some absolutely dickish things to Bortus, but that last little bit with Topa? I know people like him sadly exist in real life, that would completely disown their children due to cultural taboos, but... damn.


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