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KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#301: Sep 18th 2020 at 4:54:37 PM

Wait Promachos? That seems so filled with Testosterone Poisoning that has me wonder if that was why Athena sided with the men a lot

Yeah, this is case of you mixing up your Greek and Latin roots. Promachos in this case means fighting from the front lines

jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#302: Sep 25th 2020 at 8:10:35 AM

In today's Trope Talk, Red talks about Grimdark:

Edited by jouXIII on Sep 25th 2020 at 6:13:52 PM

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#303: Sep 25th 2020 at 8:35:02 AM

I find it interesting that Red mentions that she thinks that none of the strengths of grimdark stories are unique to grimdark itself.

I recently read a light novel called Do You Think Someone Like You Can Defeat The Demon King which can get really dark at times, but I would definitely not qualify as grimdark because there are several heartwarming and hopeful moments between the moments of various horrors. In my opinion, it's a great example of how you can write something with a lot of dark themes but still make it compelling because the characters are not too gritty and hope is never completely snuffed out.

The horrors are there (especially the body horror), but you never feel like the heroes are up against hopeless odds and you never feel like the protagonist has completely discarded her humanity for the sake of revenge even if she can be pretty merciless to those who hurt her loved ones.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Sep 25th 2020 at 8:36:03 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#304: Sep 25th 2020 at 8:38:20 AM

Warhammer is so grimdark that even hope also not the best option.Also i think the there happy ending in 40K for the Orks atleast.

Edited by BattleRaizer on Sep 25th 2020 at 10:39:06 PM

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#305: Sep 25th 2020 at 8:51:19 AM

Technically there is no happy ending for orks because for them "an ending" is not happy [lol]

Well unless it's the ending by Enuff Dakka then maybe.

Edited by Adannor on Sep 25th 2020 at 6:52:30 PM

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#306: Sep 25th 2020 at 9:04:52 AM

Grimdark seems like the ultimate expression of nihilism, "f*** you, got mine" sentiments and ironically childish immaturity.

I mentioned over at the DC thread in response to an anecdote about the company somehow missing the existence of the Scholastic Book Fair that it is emblematic about a company that tried too hard to appeal to adults and that it might explain several factors at DC, such as the DCEU's general tone and the general issues with the continuity.

In a way its rather telling that the two titles that kickstarted the dark age were both DC books.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:28:33 AM

BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#307: Sep 25th 2020 at 9:53:36 AM

I think one of the reason i like Warhammer 40K so much is because despite the hopelessness of the setting the characters in it still keep on fighting. It shows that in the face of hopelessness human would still fight on. The Imperium does fight for hope, hope to preserve humanity, the Eldar still fighting because their hope to save their race, the Tau hope for the prosperity of their empire, the Necron hope to reverse their curse, Chaos Space Marine fight because their hope for power. The ones that truely represent nihilism are the Dark Eldar, Tyranid and The Daemon of Chaos. Da Orks just there for the ride.

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#308: Sep 25th 2020 at 10:45:04 AM

Weren't the first 2 editions of Warhammer 40k mostly satirical?

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#309: Sep 25th 2020 at 10:46:03 AM

Honesly I think of the fiction I consumed recently the most grimdark would have to be...an indie Korean management sim. L Ets go abck a bit...

  • Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Could potnetilaly be Grimdark...if not for the fact that the central them was Hope Vs Despair and that the former eked out a big victory
    • Likewise I don't think Magia Record also counts, though like the source materiel it does come close.
  • Dark Nights: Death Metal: despite what I mentioned before There does seem to be some hope in the event and the narrative seems too plot driving to count as Grimdark even though the setting may very well be. Interestingly Batman's proposition of not trying to fix the world seems closer to Grimdark.
  • Disgaea: despite taking place in Hell most of the time, the narrative seems to avoid that, and in a couple cases is more traditional. Also seems to have a more comedic tone Black Comedy or otherwise
  • Lobotomy Corporation: You manage a renewable energy company that gets its power form Eldritch Abominations in what is basically the capitalist version of the SCP foundation, the plot is minimalist and you agents are expendable if you don't care about them at and could very easily die as the game goes on. Pretty much the only one of the 5 or 6 works that I'd consider to be Grimdark
  • Final Fantasy XIV: I'll be blunt, the only way for the game to even be considered Grimdark is if the game ended with just 1.0 and ARR was aborted. At this point, the protagonists had brought their world from the brink, and averted another Apocalypse by stopping a different world on the precipice from falling.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Sep 25th 2020 at 10:48:28 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#311: Sep 25th 2020 at 12:39:09 PM

One thing they neglect to go into his grimdark as a source of comedy. A lot of the more well-liked grimdark stories contain plenty of gallows humor derived from how awful everything is.

BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#312: Sep 26th 2020 at 5:48:44 AM

Rewatching the video, i think Red missed why people said Grim Dark is about overcome adversity and hopelessness. In a non-grimdark story, we, the readers know the heroes will eventually overcome their adversary or obstacles. That isn't the case in a grim dark world. The readers and sometimes the characters in that world know what kind of world they are in, they know that even if they try their hardest it doesn't mean the world will reward them, that things will get better and yet they still try. It's easy to do good when the world will reward you for it, it's harder to still trying do good when you know that your action could very well be meaningless. In this perspective, heroism in a grim dark story is more powerful than heroism in a non-grim dark story. It teaches a very important lesson:"Even if you try your hardest, it doesn't mean you will success, but it also doesn't mean that you should give up and not even try."

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#313: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:01:07 AM

[up]I get the feeling Red would classify the sort of story with the lesson "Even if you try your hardest, it doesn't mean you will succeed, but it also doesn't mean that you should give up and not even try" as just plain dark, with grimdark going more for "You won't succeed, and even if you try, nothing will ever change and you are stupid for even trying because why the hell did you think anything you do even matters?"

If she is using that definition, I can see why; I personally would not classify "Even if you try your hardest, it doesn't mean you will succeed, but it also doesn't mean that you should give up and not even try" as grimdark; it's too hopeful.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:01:43 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#314: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:26:45 AM

Full on grimdark is incredibly hard to make compelling. If everything's completely hopeless and the world is awful and no one can succeed at making it better, why the hell would I want to consume that piece of media? What's the point to it? It'll just make me feel like crap.

BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#315: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:14:33 AM

[up]Well it's a matter of perspective. Hope shine brighter in the face completely darkness. Struggle on when you know there no reward waiting for you is more heroic.

Take 40K for example, due to the scale of the universe most victories are meaningless in the grand scheme of thing, no one can change the nature of the universe and most characters know this. So they and us, the readers, find comfort in the small victory at the moment. Everyone know that their future is bleak and there only war but at the now, at this moment, this is their victory. We know the character won't survive the story yet we can look forward to their end, knowing it they will face oblivion and spit in oblivion face.

Another take is that it make the story less predictable and give the story more options. In most story we know how it would end or at least have a general ideas how it would end, the heroes will always triump over the bad guys. The heroes will always win, the villains will always lose. Grim dark allow you to tell the story from the villain perspective and have the villain win.

Edited by BattleRaizer on Sep 27th 2020 at 12:15:44 AM

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#316: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:19:03 PM

It also can leave the door open for a fairly satisfying No Ending or some other usually anti-climactic ending; No one has "won" and the chase/fight is still on, but the characters have succeeded in surviving to another day and grown in their character development and personal relationships.

Those kind of endings tend to not be that satisfying in normal 'Heroes win, Villains lose' dichotomy of storytelling.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#317: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:34:26 PM

Take 40K for example, due to the scale of the universe most victories are meaningless in the grand scheme of thing, no one can change the nature of the universe and most characters know this.

I mean, in a grand enough scheme of things, all victories are meaningless, since eventually we're all gonna die and the heat death of the universe will occur, but it's entirely possible to have non-grimdark stories within such a setting.

Edited by RavenWilder on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:35:20 PM

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#318: Sep 26th 2020 at 6:49:06 PM

That's why the novels tend to succeed as stories in that greater whole of misery. Sure the universe may be still fighting and dying pointless wars, but while you can't save the Imperium, your plucky soldiers on this one planet can still do good and save the locals. It's equally silly that 40 K doesn't have several completely functional planets and economies. An empire can't run of fumes, no matter how large. You need stability of some sort.

BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#319: Sep 26th 2020 at 7:20:01 PM

[up] Cause most story focus in the war aspect of the world so I the worlds that the story take place on usually wartore places rather the more stable and peaceful one. Worlds like Ultramar, Nocturne or Deliverance are generally peaceful and does support the economic of the Imperium.

Edited by BattleRaizer on Sep 26th 2020 at 9:27:19 PM

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#320: Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:11:16 AM

In History Summarized, Blue talks about history of Hawai'i:

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#321: Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:21:49 AM

I would defend F.D.R interment camp decision. The same reason why the Japanese descend was fighting in Europe. Japan did have spies among the Japanese population in U.S and it also partly to protect the Japanese population in U.S from mob mentality. Remember, during a fever of nationalism, especially after a tragic event, people don't have the best judgment and would target their anger on someone else like what we saw first hand in what happened after 9/11 to the Muslim population in the US. The camps were a necessary evil , both to protect the US and the Japanese in the US at the time. The camps purpose weren't to kill, exterminate or re-education like most concentration camps, they were there to seperate the Japanese from the population until the end of the war.

Edited by BattleRaizer on Oct 2nd 2020 at 10:23:14 PM

E.T technically is a Isekai movie
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#322: Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:52:22 AM

Even if that has some truth to it, they still grossly mishandled the situation. It ruined the lives of tens of thousands of families.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#323: Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:55:31 AM

So Hawaiian Pizza is cultural appropriation huh? More of a pepperoni guy anyway so so having another reason to not like pineapples helpstongue

(Kinda makes that Pizza joke in Inside Out a little tasteless)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:55:53 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#324: Oct 2nd 2020 at 8:59:29 AM

[up][up][up] It was still a process of rounding people up and shoving them into camps based on race.

The notion that somebody's ancestry automatically makes them a 5th column of a foreign enemy is questionable at best.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
BattleRaizer from Realm of Khorne Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325: Oct 2nd 2020 at 9:04:49 AM

Again, even if the US government didn't treat them as enemies, the general public would, especially after Pearl Harbor, and this is the 40s US. The government can try to tell it population not to discriminate and lynching the Japanese on their soil but the US was in the middle of nationalism fever at that time.

E.T technically is a Isekai movie

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