Misused: The Jail Bait Wait

The trope description is fairly straightforward: People who don't have sexual intercourse with someone because said someone hasn't reached the age of consent (referred to as AOC in this post) yet.

However, the example list has attracted a number of entries which are either:

1. Using an AOC that is incorrect for the polity in question (e.g the page quote from How I Met Your Mother, and the examples from Meg's Family Series, Family Guy, Beautiful Girls. Friends, House, Sabrina Online, Moon Over June. Possibly Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Steel Ball Run and Harry Potter as well)
2. Aren't about sex at all, or are confusing it with marriage (e.g Cardcaptor Sakura, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha, Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans, Green Lantern, Pony POV Series, Celydonn, To Ride Pegasus, Deryni, A Song of Ice and Fire, Myth.Greek Mythology. People in the Mirror are Closer Than They Appear and Roseanne maaaybe as well)
3. Don't appear to have anything to do with AOC at all (e.g High School DXD, Yuureitou, every example in the Magazines folder)
4. Are in purely fictional settings, and there is no indication that said fictional setting has an AOC spelled out (e.g One Piece, Star Trek, Legacy of the Dragokin, Final Fantasy VI, Guilty Gear and most other videogame examples. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time prolly along the same vein)

The first type of examples can be excused as Hollywood Law (or Hollywood Age Of Consent if that merits a trope on its own), but the rest does not appear to fit the trope as it is currently written. Also bunch of general examples but that is not TRS worthy per se.

A crude wick check:

• 5 Elementos: Seems like a random pothole.
• Characters.Cerberus Daily News Systems Alliance: No indication that an AOC is spelled out for the setting.
• Recap.Degrassi S 10 E 34 When Love Takes Over: This seems to be about sex so it may be right.
• BerserkButton.Fan Works: Seems like a random pothole with no explanation.
• Grim Tales from Down Below: No indication that there is an AOC involved or even sex at all.
• Lufia: Seems to be talking about marriage rather than sex.
• The Monster Under the Bed: Can't tell.
• No Real Life Examples, Please!: Administrivia listing.
• Pokemon Anime: Can't tell.
• Pokémon Rusty: Talks about marriage not sex.
• The Princess and the Frog: Can't tell.
• Questionable Consent: Seems fine.
• Strawberry Shake Sweet: Seems like a good example.
• Tuck Everlasting: The example is about marriage, not sex.
• X to Z: Seems fine.

edited 14th Aug '17 1:07:29 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I mentioned this to Septimus in mod chat, but it's worth adding here: marriage as a proxy for sex is a valid example of Jail Bait Wait, because in most settings with formal marriage, it's effectively a license to have sexual relations, and so waiting to marry an underage person carries pretty much the same connotation.

What the trope is not:

• Being forced to marry someone that you have had sex with, underage or not. That's Shotgun Wedding.
• Having sex with a person but waiting until they come of age to formally marry them. At most this is a subversion of the trope, and then only if the audience doesn't know about it. Otherwise, since they are having sex, they aren't "waiting".
• Marriage making sex legal even if the person is underage. These go under Old Man Marrying a Child and/or Marital Rape License.
• Where the AOC is not defined in the work's setting, and/or the setting does not have any social concept of statutory rape. These can be explicit or implicit — an implicit case would be setting the work in a real life time and place where the laws are known.
• A child waiting until they are of age to express sexual interest in an older parental figure. That's Wife Husbandry.

edited 15th Aug '17 9:50:29 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I did check Jail Bait but unlike this trope that one seems to be used mostly correctly. I wonder if restricting the concept to cases where the wait is forced by AOC laws may make it too narrow.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I agree with this, which means "2. Aren't about sex at all, or are confusing it with marriage" are valid examples under this interpretation.

For full context, I think examples should contain an older character choosing to abstain from sex (or marriage/dating) until a younger character has passed AOC (or similar laws).

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The Magazine folder examples would seem to be based on "not legal to fantasize/photograph people under X age". It's approximate to the subject, but wayyy too close to real-life troping for me to be happy with it. The Radio folder does the same thing.

Why does the definition not link to Jail Bait? Some of The Jailbait Wait examples contain underage characters but no "waiting".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Since the previous wick check was kind of small, I've decided to make an additional one (pardon the Example Indentation violation):

There is currently nothing in the description that allows for marriage to be considered for this trope, neither as a standalone provision nor as a proxy for an AOC. So for these entries to become correct the definition needs to be broadened. I have no objection towards considering marriage if the setting explicitly spells out that you need to be married to have sex, but "old enough to marry" as a standalone seems like a different concept. And definitively no examples where we need to assume how sex and marriage interact legally.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Yes, the Surprisingly Similar Characters example is the one I put in. Part of the "flavor" of this "Just For Fun" page is:

The Potholes (at least in my examples) are the actual behaviors that are being maligned/described. In this case, I was comparing Relm's interest in Edgar to Bonnie always trying to get a bride for Clemont. Upon further review, it seems to fit better as a Precocious Crush (and it is listed as a converse Trope in the description) so I'll amend it. Whether my usage is legitimate on this and similar pages should be a topic for another discussion entirely.

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As for the present discussion itself:

First thought: Many of the examples listed as "Hollywood Law" are actually cases of either We All Live in America, where the standards of America (or the writer's country) are applied to a foreign setting, or Eagleland Osmosis, where works from other Countries apply American standards outside of America.

Likewise, Fictional Examples fall under the rubric of Like Reality, Unless Noted. If there is a comment that is referencing a jailbait wait, referencing either a given age or a timeframe, it should be taken at face value. It is a rare series where the social/legal constructs relating to sex are important enough to be discussed, much less a plot point.

Of course, if the dynamics are explained, either in the work or in supplemental materials, then those explanations take precedence unless those materials are Jossed later on. If an AOC is expressed in series material, yet a comment in the work alludes to a Real Life/American rubric, then it's either a Plot Hole or a Series Continuity Error and should be listed as such.

The question in this point is: "Does the author getting it wrong override authorial intent?"

For offending examples in these cases, my answer is:

• On the respective Works Pages, that they are listed as examples of the respective writing violation though a Pot Hole to JBW would still be legit since that is what they were going for.
• On the Jailbait Wait page: It is still technically an example, as it is what the writer was going for, even if the writer got the actual standards wrong. The error should still be mentioned, however.
• The example also gets added to the respective writing error's Trope page, if the page allows it; JBW would have to be potholed there to show what the writer got wrong.

In effect, I disagree with Fighteer that the lack of a standard invalidates the reference. My thought is, "It's what the writer was going for and it's otherwise not important enough to merit further discussion within the series."

Second Thought: There actually is a concept of a Marriageable Age which, depending on the era, is either the age when you could marry either at all^note or own property where property ownership is a prerequisite to marriage or without parental consent. Remember that, until the past few generations, sex outside of marriage was a strong taboo; similarly, shows that are intended for childhood/family viewing would have to use Marriage as a substitute concept for a sexual relationship whenever such matters are broached. (Or as a way of Getting Crap Past the Radar if the Relationship Ceiling doesn't even allow for that.) Therefore, I believe that Marriageable Age would be Ridiculously Similar to Age of Consent for this Trope's purposes. (I made this paragraph before reading Fighteer's post.)

On that note, Legal restrictions are often former societal Taboos that were violated without legal consequence. So, in absence of an outright legal standard, a taboo can fill in. In fact, sometimes writers do it backwards: their audience is conditioned to certain laws and so actions that would contradict those laws are rendered as "Taboos" in the Foreign/Fantasy Counterpart Culture even though such standards may not be justified in that universe.

TLDR version:

• Examples that use a standard from another jurisdiction/that otherwise conflicts with established material are effectively writing errors, and thus examples of such, though the Pot Holes to JBW are still valid because that is the concept that the writer got wrong. In the absence of a Legal Standard, mentioned "Taboos" can substitute.
• Examples using Marriage in lieu of Sex should be permitted provided that the series has an appropriate Relationship Ceiling. Examples that are unclear as to whether it is marriage or sex should be similarly allowed so long as there is not a reasonable alternative explanation.

Of course, there probably is some outright misuse (like mine):

• EDIT: If it is about Sex/Marriage/etc. but either a specific passage of time or a specific age is not referenced, then it needs to be reclassified as Let's Wait a While.
• Likewise, if it's just about a Relationship Upgrade and it's initiated by the Junior, then it's a Precocious Crush. (If initiated by the Senior, then it either may still count or would fall under one of the other Tropes Fighteer listed depending on the context/Relationship Ceiling.)

In other words, there are two elements to the Trope:

• It has to be a comment regarding sexual activity (or The Moral Substitute given a series' Relationship Ceiling)
• It has to reference either a particular age or a significant passage of time (implied to be the time necessary to reach said particular age) EDIT: Or else a particular maturity level.

edited 20th Aug '17 8:57:11 AM by DonaldthePotholer

Ketchum's corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced tactic is indistinguishable from blind luck.

Agreed that marriage implies sex will be involved, there's the whole idea of consummation of marriage after all. Also agree that in most of these examples even if the mechanics aren't specifically delved into fiction is usually Like Reality, Unless Noted. It's not that hard to see what is intended to be a Jail Bait Wait in fiction, if the current definition doesn't allow for marriage examples it's too narrow.

Oissu!

Imma write something longer when back on a laptop, but Eagleland Osmosis and We All Live in America aren't the correct tropes - 16 is the most common AOC in the US as well as the federal reference standard, and not 18. Hence the cites to Hollywood Law, sometimes SoCalization would apply since 18 is the standard in California.

The cite to Like Reality, Unless Noted is even less accurate as most legal systems in the western world and elsewhere do not demand one to be an adult to have sex, much less to be married.

Honestly, getting an AOC wrong does not invalidate an example but it can muddy the water. I am also mentioning these entries for my own convenience and for anybody interested, because I think that Hollywood Age Of Consent would make a legit subtrope to Hollywood Law.

edited 20th Aug '17 9:02:02 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

The problem is that, from the Trope's description, Hollywood Law is effectively simplification/overlooking errors for purposes of facilitating the plot. (The description itself links to Rule of Drama.) Quite a few examples use the AOC as a one-off gag as opposed to a viable plot point, therefore no plot is facilitated. So it's more of a failure of research, i.e. Artistic License – Law. True, our scenario is listed on the Hollywood Law page, but as a subset of "Dropping The Charges", not as an item in and of itself.

As to whether or not a separate pages is merited, whichever Trope we branch it off of, I guess it comes down to the number of examples, both of the parent Trope after culling incorrect marks, and of the number of times where it's the writers that are in error.

On that note, my use of We All Live in America and Eagleland Osmosis was for the more general usage of "Producing Country inflicts its values on Foreign Setting"/"Producing Country applies American values/standard into its own setting" respectively. WALIA explicitly mentions that the Trope applies regardless of Producing Country, and could even apply against America; indeed its Anime & Manga section of that page can more properly be titled as "We All Live In Japan". In fact, SoCalization lists itself as a Sub-Trope of WALIA; though upon reading it, I now think that it's just The Same But More Specific, which would make that the subject of a future ticket. Eagleland Osmosis, admittedly, not so much, though there is no trope for "Southern California Osmosis", nor do I believe one is strictly necessary.

As for the "Like Reality..." point: The boundary may not be adulthood, but there is a boundary. In fictional worlds, where the subject is not otherwise broached, the proper question is no longer "How old does a person have to be to have sex?" but becomes "Is there a taboo^note expressed or inferred against marrying someone below a certain maturity level^note usually expressed as age?" If JBW is referenced, then such a taboo is referenced by implication.

Ketchum's corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced tactic is indistinguishable from blind luck.

This trope by its description is only about sex laws. And since they vary from place to place, LRUN is not really applicable.

I am thinking that the Hollywood Law point invited a distraction. I should not have brought it up.

edited 20th Aug '17 12:21:30 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Sometimes, discussions on some tropes reveal problems in others, sometimes completely unrelated.

For the most part, though, they are matters for another day.

As for fictional examples, the reason why I brought them up as Like Reality, Unless Noted is that, while the actual boundaries are variable between different cultures, they still exist in the general sense in several present-day cultures and virtually all of the developed world. That Trope seemed to me to be the Closest Thing We Got, especially for works set in the modern day.

In my opinion, looking over the description, referencing a jail bait wait Implies a "social concept of statutory rape" unless the reference is made to Defy that social concept. Whether that concept is legally binding or merely a social taboo could still be up in the air, but it would also be irrelevant if there is no further expansion on the concept, which in several cases there is not. Invoking JBW, especially in one-off scenarios, is tantamount to saying:

The age-based wait would not be mentioned if there was no reason for it to exist, unless someone believed it to exist, e.g. "fish-out-of-water" scenarios.

Granted, the above only applies to the variant where an (obvious) adult is attracted to an (obvious) tween or child. The variant where one has to "wait 1 year, 5 months, 23 days..." however, would fall prey to the lack of a common standard and/or Vague Age. Interestingly, a work set in the 19th Century or earlier using JBW would also not work for similar reasons. Per The Other Wiki:

In effect, the enforcement of a precise limit would require precision that would have been Ludicrous prior to the 19th Century. So perhaps your idea for an article on Age-Of-Consent-Misuse does have some legs. Again, the discussion of which Trope to fork from can wait for the proper time.

Ketchum's corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced tactic is indistinguishable from blind luck.

How about instead of trying to lay out a clear path though the tangle of legal AOC laws and taboos and societal norms, we simplify the definition of Jail Bait Wait to something like :

"An older person refrains from sexual interaction with a younger one, until the younger one has passed an specific (arbitrarily-established) age. The delay is solely and explicitly because of the age of the younger one.

edited 22nd Aug '17 10:08:42 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Marriage=Sex. This has been the case pretty much forever in all and any cultures I can think of. Forced marriage is a family-friendly euphemism for rape in many books and movies. It would be nonsensical to say that books that were too squeamish to mention sex should therefore not qualify.

The only case where "waiting until marriageable age" would not be about sex would be if two minors were just waiting to turn 16 to be able to elope to Gretna Green and get married. Which would not fit the "Jail Bait Wait" anyway, because the very name implies some creepy older dude waiting for a girl to turn 18, or whatever the respective age of consent, so he can creep on her without going to jail for it. Underage couples don't have that problem.

And the difference to Wife Husbandry is not the difference between sex and marriage, but the grooming that's there in Wife Husbandry, but not in Jail Bait Wait.

^^I like that proposal.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think that's a better distinction than any specific law, since we have the same behaviour in fiction where the laws might not be exactly the same, but the creator wants the same idea to be present. The idea here is that someone waits for someone to grow old enough that it's not seen as a crime, lawfully or socially.

Check out my fanfiction!

This, plus marriage as a child-friendly substitute, works for me. Full context means examples contain an older character choosing to abstain from sex (or marriage/dating) until a younger character has passed an specific (arbitrarily-established) age.

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Can we cut the [Magazine] and [Radio] folders for being about real-life people?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

"Sexual interaction" would cover marriage, given the assumption that marriage involves sex, unless the work makes it explicit that the marriage would not include sex. Not "might not". "Will not."

I see no reason to complicate the trope by getting into the fine points of arranged or forced marriages. Being married generally removes any legal age-related complications. The trope is about avoiding legal issues or social censure by waiting until the younger one is "legal" before sexual contact. Marriage overrides that.

This is not about whether it's right, moral, or acceptable. It's about whether it happens in a work.

edited 22nd Aug '17 6:40:27 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

And by the way, the reason it's usually 18 is because that's the most stringent standard. If a girl is 18, she's legal in every state in the US and in most of Europe as well. She may have already been legal for several years, but that's not the point; it's that pretty much anywhere in the Western world she is.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Regarding Magazines and Radio, the last two items in the Magazines folder are general examples. The rest does not look like Real Life examples to me - Radio and Magazines are works.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

On those Fantasy examples I think the Like Reality, Unless Noted is enforced there.

The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel example

edited 23rd Aug '17 6:01:13 AM by Memers

That seems more like the setting has an explicitly statedstandard. Good example but nothing to do with Like Reality, Unless Noted.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Well it was filed in the "Fictional universe: Almost certainly wrong" section of your wick check.

Well, yes, if the example does not specify a standard it is questionable. Real Life does not have "a" standard, it has several depending on time and place which is why Like Reality, Unless Noted does not justify such an example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

• Natalie Portman
• Lindsey Dawn Mc Kenzie
• Samantha Fox,
• Debee Ashby
• Maria Whittaker
• Billie Piper
• Olsen twins

These are people, not fictional characters.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Not sure if that makes a difference. A real life topic beind discussed in a work does not fall under NRLEP.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman