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GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Aug 21st 2017 at 3:34:01 PM

Is it OK to delete hypotheticals and non-ascended Fridge Horror regardless of whether the rules in the original post become official?

"I wasn't really dead." —Paul McCartney
Aug 21st 2017 at 3:48:07 PM

[up] Nightmare Fuel says this:

Do not: ...

So yeah, go ahead and cut Fridge Horror.

Aug 21st 2017 at 3:50:25 PM

[up][up] You can move it to the Fridge page instead.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Aug 21st 2017 at 3:57:16 PM

Got it. I don't intend to do any cleanup right now, but if I encounter Fridge Horror on a Nightmare Fuel page I'll move it.

edited 21st Aug '17 3:58:54 PM by GastonRabbit

"I wasn't really dead." —Paul McCartney
Aug 26th 2017 at 1:21:58 PM

The NightmareFuel.Death Battle page is pretty bad. The show is about Cool vs. Awesome fights to the death between characters, yet the page lists almost every injury and death that occurs in the series. If you're so sensitive to violence that these fights are actually scary to you, you shouldn't be watching that show in the first place!

Some of the entries appear to have been written before the episodes were released, discussing ways the episode MIGHT have turned out and the implications (mostly by pointing out when one of the fighters is a kid, which would make the other character a child murderer if they win).

On top of that, pretty much everything on the page is in spoiler tags.

EDIT: I'm done cleaning up the blatantly rule-breaking examples and removing spoiler tags. There's still some stuff I'd like to cut, but that'll have to wait until after we get the new rules in place.

edited 26th Aug '17 1:38:32 PM by Zuxtron

TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Aug 26th 2017 at 2:25:47 PM

While I can understand the enthusiasm for the clean up we really need to finish what we started. Namely addressing the rules adjustment so any changes can be laid out on the ]=NMF=] page and individuals landing on that page see the new info. Also we can point to here and say yes this was a consensus based change.

edited 29th Aug '17 2:45:17 AM by TuefelHundenIV

"Who watches the watchmen?"
Aug 28th 2017 at 3:53:47 PM

I've re-organized the suggested rules once again, incorporating the modifications I've thought of that others were okay with. I even added a section at the end to give people an idea of what DOES count as Nightmare Fuel. So here's the newest and best edition of the rule suggestions yet!

EDIT: I moved the section on what IS Nightmare Fuel to near the top, right after the part telling you that Nightmare Fuel needs to be more than a bit spooky, so readers can immediately get a better idea of the level of fear required.

  • This is a trope whose name is intended to be taken more literally than most. It's not enough for material to be scary; to truly qualify, it has to be frightening enough to legitimately unnerve/disturb the viewer, with actually being nightmare-inducing as the ultimate endpoint.
    • Good signs that something IS Nightmare Fuel include if:
      • It left you feeling shaken even after the credits had rolled, you turned the last page, or are otherwise done with the work.
      • You have a hard time falling asleep if you think about it at night, or have a literal nightmare about it.
      • You dread that episode, scene, level, chapter, or song during re-watches, and consider skipping it.
    • With that said, don't add something just because it happens to be your personal phobia. For example, spiders can be scary and many people have arachnophobia, but just because a spider happens to be in the work, it does not make a Nightmare Fuel entry. It needs to reasonably be scary to someone without the phobia.
    • Don't confuse tension with fear. If the hero is in trouble, but you know he'll make it out okay at the end, it's probably not Nightmare Fuel unless the threat is especially disturbing.
  • Don't add things that might have scared someone. If it didn't scare you, and you don't personally know anyone else who was scared, you shouldn't be adding it to Nightmare Fuel.
  • Nightmare Fuel should stick to you even after you're done with the work.
    • If something is initially presented as scary but turns out to be harmless, it's most likely not Nightmare Fuel since The Reveal makes the scariness vanish.
    • Jump Scares are a good source of Nightmare Fuel, but not all of them automatically qualify: being startled is not the same as being scared.
  • Hypotheticals are not Nightmare Fuel:
    • Remember that Trailers Always Lie: a scene that is presented as scary in the trailer could very well turn out to be inoffensive in the finished work. Only add examples from unreleased works if they were especially terrifying.
    • Fan theories do not belong on the Nightmare Fuel page under any circumstance. No matter how much evidence they have to support them, don't add them until they've been officially confirmed. In the meanwhile, take them to Wild Mass Guessing.
    • Fridge Horror goes on the Fridge page, not Nightmare Fuel. Don't add it unless it's Ascended Fridge Horror.
  • Keep in mind the work's intended audience when considering whether or not something is Nightmare Fuel.
    • If something is normal or expected in the genre, it does not automatically qualify. Violence in a Fighting Series or gore in a horror movie must be especially disturbing or gruesome by the work's standards to be Nightmare Fuel.
    • Remember that Kids Shouldn't Watch Horror Films. If a work is rated PG-13 or higher but would only be scary to young children, it's not Nightmare Fuel.
    • The standards on what qualifies as Nightmare Fuel are especially stringent on works aimed at children and pre-teens: kids have hyperactive imaginations, so even something benign can give them nightmares.

edited 6th Sep '17 6:46:20 AM by Zuxtron

TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Aug 28th 2017 at 5:42:19 PM

Overall looks good to me.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
Aug 28th 2017 at 6:54:58 PM

Well that's just my luck. Just when I don't have regular internet access for a month is when it's decided to finally do something about Nightmare Fuel. I guess it's too late to vote for burning everything to the ground? Oh well, the new rules brought up here have my support.

ReynTime250 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Aug 29th 2017 at 4:58:11 PM

I slightly re-organized the list by moving the section on what IS Nightmare Fuel to near the top. I think the list flows better that way, since it makes sense to give examples of the level of terror required to qualify right after telling them that a slight spook is not enough:

  • This is a trope whose name is intended to be taken more literally than most. It's not enough for material to be scary; to truly qualify, it has to be frightening enough to legitimately unnerve/disturb the viewer, with actually being nightmare-inducing as the ultimate endpoint.
    • Good signs that something IS Nightmare Fuel include if:
      • It left you feeling shaken even after the credits had rolled, you turned the last page, or are otherwise done with the work.
      • You have a hard time falling asleep if you think about it at night, or have a literal nightmare about it.
      • You dread that episode, scene, level, chapter, or song during re-watches, and consider skipping it.
    • With that said, don't add something just because it happens to be your personal phobia. For example, spiders can be scary and many people have arachnophobia, but just because a spider happens to be in the work, it does not make a Nightmare Fuel entry. It needs to reasonably be scary to someone without the phobia.
    • Don't confuse tension with fear. If the hero is in trouble, but you know he'll make it out okay at the end, it's probably not Nightmare Fuel unless the threat is especially disturbing.

edited 29th Aug '17 4:58:34 PM by Zuxtron

TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Aug 29th 2017 at 6:10:59 PM

That does look better. Good work Zux.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
Aug 31st 2017 at 2:19:31 PM

I went to the main page, but don't see the list. Where is it?

Aug 31st 2017 at 2:20:46 PM

How will we be enforcing cleanup of misuse?

Aug 31st 2017 at 2:30:49 PM

[up][up] We haven't actually implemented these rules yet. The list I wrote is a few posts up, post number 57 if that's what you're talking about.

[up] We'll probably just be cleaning them up as we find them. Pages with especially frequent misuse problems could have a commented-out warning put at the top and bottom, reminding people about these rules.

edited 31st Aug '17 2:32:50 PM by Zuxtron

Aug 31st 2017 at 3:45:56 PM

I will start a project thread once we're done here, but I'm envisioning something more like the quotes thread than the Complete Monster thread. More piecemeal "I found something that needs fixing, please help" than "let's systematically work through the entire wiki."

TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Aug 31st 2017 at 3:57:40 PM

So does anyone have anything else we can add? For the most part it looks like we have covered our bases.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
Aug 31st 2017 at 6:06:07 PM

Agreed, no one seems to be opposed to these rules, so I believe the job is pretty much done. Can I or someone else just put these rules on Nightmare Fuel right now, or do we need approval from a mod before doing that?

TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Aug 31st 2017 at 6:17:32 PM

I think mod approval is needed before we make change like that.

After that, sandbox the change and if it looks good put it up on the page officially.

edited 31st Aug '17 6:19:02 PM by TuefelHundenIV

"Who watches the watchmen?"
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sep 1st 2017 at 4:49:51 AM

I support making the proposed rules official, but we should wait for staff approval before putting them in the rules list on the main Nightmare Fuel page.

"I wasn't really dead." —Paul McCartney
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Sep 1st 2017 at 4:53:50 AM

Not giving a general staff opinion here, but: Discussion page would be better. The Nightmare Fuel page is not really the place to put instructions for editors; the main article page is for readers.

Speaking of, is there anything in the current description that might tell people that examples we don't want are fine?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Sep 1st 2017 at 10:19:40 AM

Septimus: Except that is done on a regular basis especially for problematic pages and history shows the discussion page is regularly ignored by most editors especially those just adding an example or two and then never revisiting the page.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Sep 1st 2017 at 11:15:25 AM

As someone who has done major TRS cleanups, I can absolutely guarantee that even when it's on the main page people won't read it.

Also, trope pages are for readers. Not editors.

I mostly agree with the proposed ruleset, but I think we need to formulate the rules list in a positive "This is a good example" and not in a negative "This is a bad example" way and point people to a "negative" formulation when they are asking about why their edits were wrong/what not do.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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