That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

~Siegfried 1337 Bonus Bosses cannot qualify for That One Boss, since they're supposed to be incredibly difficult by design. Keep that in mind if you go ahead with creating that From Software page.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 28th 2019 at 10:31:27 AM

Looking at Bloodborne, I think it needs a cleanup due to the chalice dungeons being optional. Also, where can I go to request to merge pages?

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Apr 28th 2019 at 11:08:52 AM

Gonna back up a bit to Smash Bros.

I don't think the Azura fight is that bad. It's a lategame WoL fight, which means can easily be overpowered with the buffs provided by WoL skills.

I understand Jeff is invincible to Assist Killer but I'm pretty sure Waluigi and Krystal can be knocked out by AK. The entry even states so.

And Krystal, for what it's worth is a lategame spirit. If you can take down Krystal real fast, it's just a matter of staying alive. However I do remember plenty of "help plz" threads for Krystal on Gamefaqs so she might count in that regard. I'm going to give the entry the benefit of the doubt and say it's just brutal enough that it counts.

Well... took my sweet time again. Frankly I'd rather not this turned into "THE SMASH BROS. THREAD", so if there's no further objections Imma burn that sucker down in an hour or two, although I'll probably put Ashley and Krystal in the "keep" pile. Also, for some reason it's just getting longer and longer, and mostly it seems to just be 1* and 2* fights getting added, so I won't bother going over those.

Anywho, just to try and invoke discussion again, Siegfried over there has got me thinking about the Dark Souls page. It's honestly not a bad page, little natter, next-to-no Bonus Boss misuse or any o' that, but there's a few goofs to go over:

• DS1: TBH this folder's nearly perfect, it's just these things that need a look.
  • Quelaag is largely a "fair" fight, especially when compared to the hellish level that precedes her. While her magic resistance is high, a player who uses magic and only magic is such a rare circumstance that singling her out for it makes no sense. Cut.
  • Ceaseless Discharge and Demon Firesage don't belong. Ceaseless is a very simple fight with a built-in cheese mechanic, while Firesage is merely a somewhat challenging version of the first boss. I also don't think Centipede should be here, but that's just my own experience without regard for anyone else's, so I'll leave him be for now.
• DS2: Waaaay too many bosses but I'm not interested in going over all of them, I'll just go over the ones that definitely don't belong.
  • Pursuer is a Wake-Up Call Boss and isn't disproportionately challenging enough to escape such a position - especially considering there's another built-in cheese mechanic in the form of the nearby ballistas.
  • Old Iron King is nigh-universally agreed upon to be one of the easiest bosses in the game, yet you'll somehow die to him once or twice. The only threat is the fact that you might fall to a clumsy, painful death, but the big lug himself isn't very worrying at all.
  • Looking Glass Knight dies too fast for the extra players to pose an issue, and if he somehow doesn't you can just go offline to circumvent the problem entirely.
  • Aava is a Bonus Boss for sure. I've seen dedicated Tropers have to zap these again and again but it seems like people can't take the hint.
• DS3: This one I think is at least "okay" to leave as is, the only things that give me pause are Wolnir and Dancer.

Re: Dark Souls:

• Demon Firesage and Centipede Demon can be skipped by paying 30 humanity to the Fair Lady and using the hallway in front of the Firesage. Does that make them "optional bosses", since you can join the Chaos Servant covenant (in order to pay the humanity) at any point and switch out later?
• Re: Quelaag: Yeah, this doesn't seem unfair at all. The trick to beating her with magic is to turn off lock-on and manually shoot her human body, which does extra damage + stagger.
• Old Iron King: dump the entry into ichorous earth. He's too easy to be on the page - camp far away from his location and get ready to strike when he uses his laser.
• Looking-Glass Knight: Too easy to be on this page.
• DLC bosses like Aava can be wiped off as usual.

There's also the issue that the Shrine of Winter doubles as a Cash Gate, so you can pass if you grind enough souls even without killing the 4 bosses that are supposed to be killed to open the shrine.

As far as optional bosses go, you only need to worry about Bonus Bosses, i.e. the ones that are both controller-smashingly challenging and difficult to find. For Firesage and Centipede, skipping them is much harder than finding them, so that's no issue; same deal with the Shrine of Winter.

Okay, but what about Bloodborne? Anything that I need to clean up there?

Edited by Siegfried1337 on May 9th 2019 at 11:52:36 AM

Having seen Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne mentioned earlier but not talked on a lot, I'd like to continue the discussion. I've played the game quite a few times, and while it does have a reputation, that list is still way, WAY too much. Here are my main thoughts:

• One of the biggest issues I have with the Nocturne problem is the nature of one of the game's endings: the True Demon Ending. It was added into the version of the game that got released internationally, mostly involving an entire dungeon that has a lot of bosses attached to it. Here's my problem: While the whole dungeon and the bosses are required for the ending, the entire purpose for it is to be a game-spanning Brutal Bonus Level that happens to award you with an ending. This creates a very, very blurry line with Bonus Boss that I never knew how to answer, but now that this thread exists, maybe I can finally get an answer. At the very least, I can assure that Matador and Dante 1 can stay; those fights are required no matter what route you're on and they're both pretty difficult. Beyond that:
  • Daisoujou and Hell Biker, while optional, aren't that out of the way, and Hell Biker is positioned in such a way he qualifies as a Skippable Boss, though you need some luck to do so. I'm not entirely sure they're tough enough though.
  • All the TDE-related bosses after Hell Biker require you to actually make significant progress in the Labyrinth of Amala, the bonus dungeon. This is where it gets really, really tricky for me; from here on, I have serious concerns over whether they count as Bonus Bosses or not. Regardless of this, I say Black Rider should be cut. The entry flat-out says he's the easiest Rider, and considering he can be cheesed in ways none of the other Fiends can really be cheesed, he just doesn't deserve to be here. White Rider is also one I'm mixed on; he's essentially a Wake-Up Call Boss for the TDE content, but he's not super difficult. He's tough, but this game's standards are already so insane he doesn't stand out that much.
  • I've seen people both struggle and have an easy time against Dante 2, and I myself have had both happen to me. I don't feel he's quite tough enough in the rematch and should be cut.
  • Beelzebub in particular I have serious reservations about with the Bonus Boss thing. It's reasonable for someone to trigger the later Fiend fights and end up not finishing the Labyrinth of Amala because the Fourth Kalpa, where Beelzebub lurks, is quite a difficulty spike. To me, it feels like Beelzebub is where the devs stop pulling and punches with the extra content and, gameplay wise, go from optional bosses that are generally more difficult than average to the absolute toughest they can manage. Beelzebub just feels like way too much of a spike to not consider a Bonus Boss personally, but if I'm judged as wrong and being required for the True Demon Ending is enough to make him not a Bonus Boss, then he definitely stays.
  • Finally for TDE, Lucifer? I actually think he should be cut no matter what. Not for being too difficult, but because while I have seen people struggle on him? I've also seen a lot of comments calling him easy and that he's not a big deal at all. While I wouldn't terribly mind these comments in another game, Nocturne is so bloated with examples that this matters.
• As for the main story bosses listed? I only have two cuts recommended: Mada and Ahriman.
  • Of the three Diet Building minibosses, who are a fairly infamous group already, Mada is considered the easiest. He doesn't hit as hard as Surt (who doesn't count because he's got a fairly simple way to cheese the fight) and he can't even dream of being as potentially cheap as Mot, who's one of the strongest keeps on the list. Even the entry itself comments that he's more annoying than difficult.
  • For Ahriman, general consensus is that he's the easiest of the three Reason Bosses, and I totally agree. As long as you're decently prepared and avoid triggering his one hit kills in his first form (which isn't that hard once you understand how his commands are worded), he's not that bad at all.

TL;DR: For Nocturne, Black Rider, Dante 2, Lucifer, Mada, and Ahriman should be cut for not being tough by the game's standards, and I'm leaning to cut Daisoujou and Hell Biker too. Furthermore, I feel like all of the TDE bosses listed post-Hell Biker (the other three Riders, Mother Harlot, Trumpeter, and Beelzebub) should be analyzed to see if any or all of them qualify as Bonus Bosses; if they aren't, I think White Rider should be cut anyway for not standing out.

The way SMT works, every ending of every game can be canon in some way. The Demi-fiend in the Apocalypse DLC is specifically from a TDE canon, but SMT I in particular has had its canon messed around to fit numerous scenarios. For example, despite Neutral leading to II, there's a small spinoff that follows I's Law ending. But the point I'm making is that a lot of what's in TDE would be considered bonus stuff in normal circumstances, but was tied in a package and given an ending in this case.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on May 13th 2019 at 1:45:04 PM

FWIW the TDE is the canon ending, according to Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse.

On-topic: From my own Nocturne experience as well, I'd motion to kick Surt, Mada, Ahriman, Dante rematch, and many of the Riders off the list due to not finding them very difficult.

My strong Nocturne keeps:

• White Rider, due to him attacking you at any large save terminal in the game with only three exceptions. The game does not tell you beforehand that the White Rider will do this, nor where he won't attack you.
• Dante first fight: Innate resistances + panic attack + second-tier debuffs + crits + Dekunda counter is not fun...
• Albion: The boss can easily resurrect its four flunkies and those flunkies in turn can resurrect the boss as soon as you forget the exact amount of HP any of them have left. No-brainer keep.
• Mot: No-brainer keep; all you can do is use accuracy buffs and debuffs ASAP and pray that his Megidolaons miss one of your party members in order to negate his Beast Eye chains.
• Matador: No-brainer keep for his outrageously high-tier buffs and debuffs.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 13th 2019 at 2:03:30 PM

Hmmmm, the TDE bosses sound hard to quantify. The big sticking point for me is the fact that, in the non-international version, they are completely and utterly optional, and were "upgraded" to mandatory for an ending that was added in post. How out of the way is this ending? Like, are we talking "you wouldn't even know it existed unless you were told" levels of optional? If that's the case, you can probably blanket them under Bonus Boss and call it a day. Aside from that, well done.

Anyway, Bloodborne page. I missed that somehow and I apologize. Three major problems, just from a glance:

• Every single mandatory boss short of Cleric Beast, the One Reborn, and Mergo's Wet Nurse is listed. Micolash can be deleted for sure - he's more annoying than hard. Gascoigne can be debated - he has a cheese mechanic in the form of the Music Box, but people usually don't know it exists, and the fact that I see speedrunners choke on this fight more than any other probably means he's exceeded being a Wake-Up Call Boss. That leaves Blood-starved Beast, Amelia, Rom, and Shadows:
  • Blood-starved Beast falls short. It's a hard boss, but so is everyone else, and this one telegraphs its attacks too much.
  • Amelia is a really bullshit fight for something so early in the game. Fire Paper helps, but most people fail to save it for this. She can stay.
  • Rom stands out enough to stay as well. The bloody spiders do far too much damage to be reasonable and speedrunners tend to choke here too.
  • I haven't seen as much complaining about the Shadows as I have for the other bosses, so I'm inclined to say they can go - even if I would like to keep them for kicking my ass for about 6 hours.
• Ludwig and Orphan of Kos fall under Bonus Boss, so they can go (even if they are hard enough to drive a man to drink).
• Now for the hard part: Chalice Dungeons. I truly, honestly have no clue what to do about these. They're optional, yet you unlock them by simply beating the Blood-starved Beast and Amygdala. The difficulty scaling is linear, yet the later stuff is expressly designed to be harder than, like, NG+7 crap. Another problem is that Defiled Amygdala is widely considered to be the hardest boss in the game, which makes it very difficult for the other Chalice bosses to stand out in comparison. I didn't use the Chalices that often, so I honestly can't chime in too much here, but at minimum we can't just blanket them under Bonus Boss.

For the rest: zap Gank Squad (it's not a boss fight, just a group of enemies), keep Bloody Crow of Cainhurst (didn't fight him, but it sounds ludicrous for a mini-boss).

Edited by DocSharp on May 13th 2019 at 11:50:19 AM

There seems to be a misunderstanding. The TDE bosses weren't in the original release at all; they were all added in the international version. As I said, the first two, Matador and the first Dante fight, are required, while Daisoujou and Hell Biker fit under Skippable Boss. Beyond that?

• You're allowed to go to the Labyrinth of Amala and do the first of five Kalpas after beating Matador, which the game lets you know.
• Reaching the Third Kalpa's gate, which requires Daisoujou and Hell Biker's defeat and completion of the Second Kalpa, triggers White Rider to spawn, and admittedly? White Rider is incredibly in your face and near impossible to avoid if you trigger him. Beating him triggers Red Rider in an area you probably have no business ever returning to, and beating a later dungeon triggers Black Rider (admittedly a super strong cut either way) in a super out of the way place in the very first dungeon.
• Beating the first three Riders unlocks the Third Kalpa, which contains the Dante ramatch (another strong cut), and also triggers Pale Rider as a Skippable Boss later on, though he doesn't spawn if you don't beat all three of them. In addition, Mother Harlot spawns in a super out of the way location in an early area, while Trumpeter also spawns as a Skippable Boss near endgame - but again, only if you beat the first three Riders.
• Beating Pale Rider, Mother Harlot, and Trumpeter unlocks the Fourth Kalpa. Which, as I mentioned, is an extreme Difficulty Spike, even for the already brutal Labyrinth of Amala. The main mechanic runs on Guide Dang It!, there are numerous sub areas that only contain items, money, and sidequests with no real progress at all, and the area actually leading to Beelzebub consists of a floor that drains a large percentage of your entire party's HP every few steps. This is NOT stuff you'd expect to see in normal gameplay, and Beelzebub himself is a strong contender for toughest boss in the game. It's all just way too jarring for me to not contest if not considering these bosses, or at least Beelzebub, Bonus Bosses is fair.

So, my main issue? These guys - at least the post-Black Rider Fiends, Beelzebub, Metatron (a clear non-keeper), and Lucifer - are clearly designed as Bonus Bosses would be in other games, but they have an ending attached to them. And while the overall way to get to the ending is laid out early, the details are extremely difficult to both figure out and execute. Reaching the Fifth Kalpa after Beelzebub in particular is a heck of a thing to figure out.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on May 13th 2019 at 2:06:44 PM

Should the White Rider terminal stalking be under Scrappy Mechanic then?

Oh bugger, my apologies. For some reason I thought the bosses were always there but they had an ending slapped onto them later. Anywho, I think I'm inclined to back your reasoning. New ending or not, the outrageous difficulty spike mixed with their severe Guide Dang It! nature means that, by all rights, these guys fall under Bonus Boss and were designed to be such.

Edited by DocSharp on May 13th 2019 at 11:12:26 AM

Having thought about it, since the truly outrageous stuff happens after the Third Kalpa, my feeling is that all TDE bosses after the four bosses associated with the Third Kalpa (namely, the first three Riders and Dante 2) should considered as Bonus Bosses for the sake of this trope. Thus, Pale Rider, Mother Harlot, Trumpeter, Beelzebub, and in a rare crossover with True Final Boss, Lucifer will be automatically cut. Any objections to this?

In case anyone brings it up, the remake of Strange Journey did something very similar to the Labyrinth of Amala with the Womb of Grief, and has a few bosses from it listed. I am not recommending that similar actions be taken there, as while it's indeed more difficult than the main game and has more complex dungeon design, it's not the same difficulty spike as the Labyrinth of Amala and doesn't have the same Guide Dang It!, plus a lot of the added complexity can be attributed to better hardware and Anti-Frustration Features added to the remake.

I'm torn on whether that qualifies for Scrappy Mechanic. It's well-known and infamous for sure, but I don't know if it's outright hated.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on May 13th 2019 at 2:24:02 PM

Continuing on with the Final Fantasy page... we have the infamous 13 trilogy.

Most every Eidolon fight. The Eidolon starts the fight by hitting the character they're associated with (always rotated into the role of party leader) with the Doom debuff, giving you three minutes (five and change on Slow) to fill the Gestalt meter or else you die, resulting in an instant Game Over. You fill the Gestalt Gauge by utilizing attacks from the character's main Paradigm roles. Don't take too long to remind yourself which ones they are, or you'll be retrying the fight a lot.

First of all this is overselling the supposed difficulty of these bosses as I've seen many rookie players beat them on their first try even without using the correct paradigms. There's a few ones I had to retry but for the most part these are all Wake-Up Call Boss at best with two exceptions and non qualifiers at worst.

For individual Eidolons: The Shiva Sisters by virtue of being fought with a party of only Snow, and since they're the first Eidolon you face you're probably not going to know the way these fights work yet. Why anyone would find basically a tutorial boss difficult is beyond me. Yeah you only have one party member but there's plenty of bosses in the series that are significantly harder and have you with 1 or 2 party members. Easy cut.

Odin serves the purpose of making sure the mechanics of Eidolon battles have been thoroughly hammered into your head. For starters, your party at this point consists of only Lightning and Hope, and Odin attacks Hope exclusively. Keep in mind that Hope has the lowest max HP and some seriously weak defense at this stage in the game, which means it'll be all you can do just to keep him alive. If you Libra Odin, it'll reveal that he "yields to those who amass chain bonuses" and "yields to those who heal the wounded". Okay, so you just heal Hope the entire battle and ride it out, right? Guess again; doing this alone doesn't raise the Gestalt meter quickly enough to outpace the Doom countdown. This means that you have to be able to switch quickly between going on the offensive and healing Hope in order to have any chance, and if you still haven't figured out how to raise the Chain meter quickly and keep it raised, prepare to die over and over and over again.

Okay, this was one of the few Eidolons that had me reset a few times. But provided you haven't been using your Aegisols and Fortisols this boss is actually exploitable like most Eidolon fights with those. But let's say you have none, and how difficult this boss truly is. For one, the game does a poor job at explaining what "chain bonuses" are. However, it does give you suggestions for Paradigms and more than likely the Medic/Medic paradigm is going to be there. Provided you at the very least know how to keep the stagger gauge going with COM/RAV and RAV/RAV that should easily defeat this boss. So I'd say he falls more under Wake-Up Call Boss.

Brynhildr. Her attacks aren't powerful enough to one-shot you, but they can be incredibly annoying, as they take off a good chunk of your health. Your party, as with the Odin fight, has only two people. This fight hammers home the importance of those buff and debuff spells that you've largely ignored up to this point, since without your party being appropriately buffed and Brynhildr being weakened sufficiently, you simply can't deal enough damage to make any progress. If Brynhildr doesn't finish you off, the Doom countdown is almost certain to finish the job.

I found this much easier than Odin. For one, you've got the Jack of All Stats Sazh and Vanille who while is weaker than Sazh, she at least will have the strength to survive a few rounds. The entry even states her attacks don't hit that hard. If you got past Odin and have the slightest inkling of what Paradigms do, this is a pretty basic boss. Cut.

Bahamut. He has a three-hit combo of doom, which knocks whoever it hits into the air, making them unable to act for the entire duration of the combo. The combo can hit everyone in its radius, and if it hits Fang twice in a row before you can heal (which is very possible if your healers get flung skyward from the first attack), you're dead.

Oh yes, this boss sucks. A simple fight in concept, but damn is it hard to finish this one smelling like a rose. Definitely brutal even by the game's standards and for the few times I come back to this game, I dread this fight and the grind heavy bosses after Alexander. THIS is where the game goes from somewhat challenging to kind of unfair. For those of you who scoff and say "The game plays itself, how could any of these be the least bit challenging?" I implore you to not come with the right Paradigm set up and see how you do. Did I mention this boss is nigh unwinnable if you don't use Autobattle as the boss is programmed to generally move faster than your inputs. Easy, easy keep.

The very next boss fight is Alexander. Your party consists of Hope, Lightning, and Fang. Hope's HP is the lowest of the three. Alexander's first attack has a wide enough radius that it will probably hit all three of your party members, knocking them down in the process. His second attack comes fast enough that your party will barely be standing up again, meaning you haven't had a chance to heal, so it will very likely kill Hope. Recover the instant this attack is done, or you will sorely regret it.

There's this thing, ya see? It's called Sentinel abuse. It's way easier to use it on this boss than with The King Of Dragons. Basically use MED/SEN/MED and you can heal freely while Alexander targets Fang. By this point provided you've been fighting most enemies, your Fang should have more than enough HP to tank hits from this guy with sentinel. Best of all, unlike the previous fight, you could use a defensive paradigm set up and he'll go down real fast. With the previous fight you had to hope he didn't hit Fang with all three of his combo attack, which can happen. But in this case, so long as Mr. A attacks Fang and not Hope you can chain the gauge really easily. And remember id you need to, both Fang and Lightning have their Eidolons. So I'd say this is just easy enough especially compared to the difficulty spike of the last fight with Bahamut that it doesn't count.

Finally, there's Hecatoncheir, who not only hits crazily hard, but has a very difficult-to-fill gauge, almost requiring Haste to be able to get enough attacks in. However, neither Fang nor Vanille will have access to Haste at this point without an absolutely ridiculous amount of CP grinding, meaning if you want to beat the fight sometime this century, you'll have to rely on the extremely rare Aegisol. Having to fight him with only two party members way after the point when the game lets you pick your own party doesn't help much. If you haven't gotten used to Vanille much after all this time, prepare to be creamed.

There's a spot I always go to on Pulse on the Archylte Steppe whenever I play this that has relatively weak enemies but provided you fight them all, can give you tons of CP especially for that point. Just grind till Vanille learns Haste and then go at it. Though I do see plenty of "help plz" threads back on gamefaqs. So I guess he can stay.

So I haven't played PQ2, but the That One Boss entry on the game's YMMV consists of literally every main boss fight, including the final and bonus boss fights.

• That One Boss: Basically every one of the five bosses AND the ultimate boss qualify into this trope. They either have ridiculous amounts of HP (Super Kamoshidaman, Yosukesaurus and Enlil) or feature gimmicks that can draw out the battle to unbelievable lengths (Mother Computer and Doe). It's also telling when you can defeat an FOE with no problem before even going after the dungeon's boss (compared to Persona Q where the FOEs are more difficult than the boss).
  • The first boss is a Wake-Up Call Boss who can attack twice per turn and his Carrot Bomb gun can easily knock out a party member if you're underleveled. You can't attack him unless you destroy his guns (each have a different weakness, by the way), and even then, he sets up a Wall that will nullify his only weakness after they are destroyed.
  • During the second half of the second boss, you're supposed to defeat the three dinosaurs who keep buffing his attacks, and each have a high amount of HP and unique weaknesses. Not only that, but if you make the mistake of attacking Yosukesaurus during this part, he will be more likely to attack you and knock out a row with Magarula.
  • The Mother Computer is the worst since it can draw the battle for over 20-30 turns from what it should be, which is further worsened by the lack of english audio of this game and you cannot analyze him during the hacking phases.
  • Doe doesn't have as many HP as the other bosses, but he can drag out battles extremely easily as the film tape that surrounds him can only be damaged by physical attacks and he can cast a myriad of attacks that can arrange from status conditions, incredibly strong physical attacks and even Mudo-type instant kills. Then you were only given a period of two turns before the tape restores itself to full health. If you think that you are done with him after this, Think again; He now goes crazy on you and triple binds your entire party and you cannot recover them using an item or skill. Do not try it because you simply can't. The only thing that can save you is Hikari and even then she can only unbind one person, meaning you need to choose which people to unbind carefully before he binds your entire party again.
  • The final boss Enlil has absurd amounts of HP and she will constantly change her weaknesses while inflicting you with a status condition. She will also sometimes force you to waste a turn by rewinding to the past turn; The only saving grace is that she doesn't change her physical affinities and she doesn't have any almighty skills to use unlike most other final bosses.
  • As for the ultimate boss Velvengers^note The Twins > Twins and Margaret > Twins and Theodore > Twins and Elizabeth, they fight you in four stages, can easily draw out the battle by using Diarahan and can instantly kill your party with an All-out attack.

The final boss and bonus boss don't count so they can be cut, but has anyone here played the game and can confirm if any of the others qualify as That One Boss?

Edited by Metaverse on May 20th 2019 at 7:12:19 AM

That One Boss/RPG has Elma from Xenoblade Chronicles 2, while Xenoblade Chronicles 2 doesn't mention her.

I don't think she qualifies since her boss fight is locked in DLC and therefore isn't required to finish the main story. She is a Bonus Boss.

Remove since it's optional.

Removed Elma.

Still having thoughts on merging the Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice into a page for From Software bosses. This a good idea?

So, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice now has its own That One Boss page. I've noticed that most of these entries pertain to mini-bosses, so I'm wondering whether or not there should be a bit of a clean up in that regard.

Now before the page was created, the Wake-Up Call Boss trope was there alongside the former, for whatever reason despite not being a YMMV Trope. I kinda combined the two because it seemed pretty redundant, but after finding this thread I'm wondering if Sekiro's page now needs a cleanup.

Edited by Shadeblade11 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:06:24 PM

• Chained Ogre: As much as a Wake-Up Call Boss it is it's easy once you learn how to dodge, and can actually be hit with a stealth Deathblow provided you get the hell out of dodge. I say remove it.
• Snake Eyes: I'm betting it was because of their wonky grab attack move. Move it to That One Attack.
• Headless: Completely optional and out of the way. Remove it.
• Seven Ashina Spears: I actually had more trouble with the Dual Boss fight against Shume Masaji Oniwa than the first one.
• O'Rin of the Water: Skippable, but not easy to figure out. She can stay.
• Lady Butterfly: Judging from the viewpoint of a first-time player, I actually died to her more than the Final Boss. She can stay even though she's a Wake-Up Call Boss.
• Owl (Father): Completely optional unless one is going for the Purification ending. Remove him.

I think if a boss is required for an ending, then it should not be considered "optional."

I think the Sekiro stuff was a little preemptive; O'Rin, Lady Butterfly, and both Seven Spears are far more optional combined than Owl (father) is considering that you have to beat him unlike the other four for an ending. And calling Chained Ogre easy if you know what you're doing, especially since the game punishes dodging in almost every other boss fight, kind of misses the point of That One Boss, even after beating the game I still find him hard.

Edit: Also I think Sword Saint Isshin should be added back, there's no rule saying final bosses are exempt from being That One Boss and he is insanely hard even for this game.

Edited by mr_allen on Jun 4th 2019 at 8:51:53 AM