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I've noticed that on those particular trope pages, they say that only one boss or level can really be considered That One Boss and That One Level, hence the emphasis on "That One" in the title. However, when I go into various video game YMMV pages, I find multiple examples of two or more bosses and levels listed, which goes against their trope's qualifications. Should there be a discussion to clean up most of these examples and limit them to just one example for each page? Just as the tropes say? Or should the trope pages themselves be given an overhaul to allow multiple examples? Let me know what you think. Similarly, this can apply to That One Attack, That One Achievement, and That One Sidequest.
If there's already an existing conversation for this, please feel free to delete this thread.
edited 2nd Jul '17 12:23:08 PM by DivineFlame100
I've deleted a few that basically included every single boss and/or level except one or two. I'm of the opinion that there should never be more than a couple.
Yeah, I agree. I think there should be at least two or three bosses/levels for each page. Any more than that, and it just borders on Nintendo Hard.
edited 2nd Jul '17 1:01:44 PM by DivineFlame100
If I read this thread correctly, that would mean all of the subpages for these tropes break the criteria for these tropes to apply, because I notice most of them list multiple examples for one game. Case in point, Dark Souls. Kind of an extreme though.
I think we should start by cleaning all of the various subpages.
Dark Souls is one of those game series that are probably not troped according to their own difficulty, but in comparison to other, easier games. Which is misuse.
edited 3rd Jul '17 12:11:29 PM by AnotherDuck
Here's what I submit from Sonic the Hedgehog:
Are final levels allowed to be That One Level?
edited 6th Jul '17 8:12:32 AM by ElloMe
A lot of those belong on That One Boss and That One Sidequest (anything to do with the special stages is sidequest material).
edited 6th Jul '17 8:15:54 AM by PhiSat
I'd say a final level can be That One Level, but that has to be after considering how difficult a final level of that particular game should be. That is, it's not enough that it's the hardest level; it has to be so much harder than any other level that it's not on the same scale. Unless you can complete the penultimate level like a boss, you pretty much have to run into a wall as far as the last level is concerned.
I figure that TTO/TTB/TTA/that one whatever is more than just "this is hard" or "this is frustrating to get". It has to be the sort that makes you throw your hands up in disgust and go play something else for a while (cf. that fortress level in VideoGame.Jak II Renegade). I'm generally in favour of cleaning the pages up and leaving a "one per game, if there's a dispute go to the discussion page" on the trope.
edited 7th Jul '17 8:26:37 AM by desdendelle
Personally I don't think it needs to be limited to one level, imo you can have 2 or 3 but they need to be it for entirely different reasons such as Luck-Based Mission for one and perfect timing based level for another.
Also IMO the last level can only be it if it's something like luck based or resorts to cheating, being the last level is usually meant to be the most difficult in the game so it needs a special 'stupid multiplier' to be it.
One per game and reason sounds like a good limitation for me. If there are two levels that are listed for the same reason, either one of them is harder than the other (which means one doesn't qualify), or they show that it's not just That One Level, which doesn't sound like an example to me. Likewise for bosses.
I think enforcing the "literally one only" rule for bosses is a little harsh, as some games can have a large number of boss battles. Having like 3 examples in these cases would still end up with a relatively small sample size. You also have the issue of trying to narrow it down to one when the entire community agrees that a couple bosses are dumb.
To give an example I'm familiar with, Kingdom Hearts II has a very large number of boss battles (don't know the exact number, but 30 story bosses minimum is a safe bet), and of those bosses there are four that are generally considered really hard: Demyx, Xaldin, Roxas (Final Mix version only), and Xigbar. II isn't exactly an easy game, but it's not hard either (outside of Critical Mode) and these guys stand out because they are aggressive, have wide/unpredictable attacks, and are difficult to approach. They give you trouble regardless of the difficulty you play on.
edited 7th Jul '17 4:55:28 PM by Karxrida
Those are hard for entirely different reasons which would count IMO.
edited 7th Jul '17 6:22:09 PM by Memers
It's worth pointing out that some of the That One Boss should probably be listed as a Wake-Up Call Boss instead; basically if an early boss is hard until a player figures out a routine game mechanic, it probably should be on Wake-Up Call Boss rather than That One Boss. Similarly, some examples of That One Level are probably best moved to Difficulty Spike instead. I'm sure there are other example of tropes that we should consider moving examples to.
Is there any particular order that we want to tackle this, or should we just pick a subpage and start making comments?
edited 7th Jul '17 10:08:10 PM by thok
Wake-Up Call Boss is when the high increase in difficulty is indicative of what the rest of the game is like, rather than a spike that is out of place from the rest of the game.
Wouldn't the bosses that don't fit into Wake-Up Call Boss just go into Difficulty Spike?
I still think a Wake-Up Call Boss can qualify. Going back to my earlier example, the fight with Demyx marks the exact point where Kingdom Hearts II starts getting hard, but he's also more difficult than a lot of the bosses that succeed him because of his special brand of BS.
Sorry for my absence in this discussion. I'm currently on vacation right now so I have limited access to internet.
Anyway, there are a couple of ways we could tackle this. One way is that we can simply clean out the pages that have most or every boss\level listed and only limit them to about two or three examples, as well as remove any examples of Final Bosses, Wake Up Call Bosses, and Bonus Bosses since they automatically don't count unless they're overly hard by their standards. Another way is that we can limit the examples to just one per page just as the tropes say, and we can have discussions as to what qualifies to be That One Boss\Level, similar to Complete Monster.
edited 8th Jul '17 12:57:05 PM by DivineFlame100
I think a Wake-Up Call Boss can qualify, but again, they need to be measured against all bosses in the game. If the bosses start to become much harder at that point, but that boss is still out of proportion for even those, it can qualify.
A Bonus Boss, no. Their purpose is to provide an extra challenge above anything else in the game. They're supposed to be extremely hard.
Agreed a Wake-Up Call Boss can be this,
An end / post game Bonus Boss that is up at any time can not be this at all, an early game Bonus Boss with a limited window of availability I can see making a case for.
A Final Boss can not in any way be this, it is supposed to be the hardest boss in the game and yada yada. Now if a final boss or level changes the rules just cause the player is getting too strong for the mechanics and or just to make it more difficult and such would be a different but related trope.
edited 9th Jul '17 2:38:40 AM by Memers
The Wily Capsule in Megaman 7 is a perfectly fine example of a Final Boss that is also That One Boss; he's overly hard both by standards of that game and by standards of what a Megaman original series Final Boss should be.
I think people have misunderstood my comment; I do think some examples of Wake-Up Call Boss should be That One Boss (for example, I agree on the consensus on Demyx, since nothing in the game particular resembles his Time Limit attack). An example of somebody who I think is miscategorized is Aztec Falcon from Megaman Zero, who is hard by standards of a early Megaman boss because he's forcing you to be prepared for the typical difficulty of a Megaman Zero boss.
Looking at this thread, it seems to me that TTB/TTL first need their pages cleaned up, then a thread set up similarly to Complete Monster, simply because there needs to be proof that something is That One Whatever before it should be included in the page. That way there's zero misuse; if it doesn't pass the thread, it doesn't get to the page.
Comparing Final Boss to Final Boss is a whole other trope. That would be comparable to Sequel Difficulty Escalation, which I think exists under some name, although overall MM 7 was midtier in difficulty for the mega mans IIRC.
The final boss is hard/hardest, that's the point. If Final Boss was to be included then almost every one would be on there. An easy final boss would be a trope, related to or a subtrope of Anti-Climax Boss.
edited 9th Jul '17 7:15:11 AM by Memers
The point of a Final Boss is to give a coda to the game, not necessarily to be the hardest boss. I agree that there are plenty of examples of games where the Final Boss is the hardest boss, but not That One Boss since its difficulty fits naturally into the difficulty curve of the game. But it's not unreasonable for there to be situations where the Final Boss completely shatters the difficulty curve to the point where it becomes That One Boss.
I would disagree, outside of a Bonus Boss, the final one is generally the hardest and is very much implied to be in the trope itself, Anti-Climax Boss is the exception not the norm.
It doesn't really matter how much harder or not, it's the final challenge in the game and it's doing it's job if it is the hardest.
That One Boss is not doing its job unless it's a Gameplay and Story Integration like Lu Bu or something. In balance patches or sequels these get nerfed.
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