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Moral Event Horizon cleanup

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WarJay77 The googly-eyed monstrosity from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
The googly-eyed monstrosity
Aug 10th 2019 at 1:12:33 PM

Well, we can't change this to an objective trope here, you'll have to argue at TRS.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Klavice As if! from Pacific Canada Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
As if!
Aug 10th 2019 at 10:30:16 PM

See, the problem with that is there's a huge chunk of villains who were unrepentantly evil with no redeeming qualities like Obito and Master Xehanort, only to get an Ass Pull Last Second Redemption. It's one thing if the character wasn't that vile to begin with but for characters who at the present time, show no signs of wanting redemption yet get redeemed in the finale, I still say they should stay. Especially if they have no FE.

Edited by Klavice on Aug 10th 2019 at 10:30:52 AM

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SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 11th 2019 at 1:30:02 AM

That would go against the trope definition, though.

Aug 11th 2019 at 11:30:22 PM

I just don't see what the point of the trope is if we axe the irredeemable part. Then it's basically just Kick the Dog except worse.

WarJay77 The googly-eyed monstrosity from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
The googly-eyed monstrosity
Aug 11th 2019 at 11:55:54 PM

I see good points on both sides, since the trope was designed with irredeemability in mind and "Event Horizon" implies no going back. On the other hand, a character becoming redeemable in the end of a story doesn't inherently make their previous actions acceptable, and the audience can still find a villain irredeemably evil because of the act, even if the work disagrees.

It's the difference between objective irredeemability and subjective irredeemability.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Aug 22nd 2019 at 10:56:11 PM

I just saw this entry for Jerry on the Rick and Morty page, and it really doesn't seem like an example of the character becoming "irredeemable."

  • Jerry crosses it in "Interdimensional Cable II" when he tries to weasel his way out of an organ donation that he previously agreed to do, which involved donating to an alien civil right leader that positively influenced billions of sentient lifeforms. Jerry knew full well of how vital Pibbles was in preserving peace in the universe but didn't care and went as far as making a vital necessity of Pebbles look like a drug addiction in public; it's made more obvious when he holds the entire staff operating on Pebbles hostage for selfish reasons as he changed his mind again, wanting to donate just so he could improve his own reputation.

Honestly, a few other entries on there could probably be looked at.

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Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Sep 3rd 2019 at 12:14:43 PM

Rick and Morty is chock full of Comedic Sociopathy (the first episode literally opens with Rick trying to destroy humanity), I don't think the MEH really exists there.

FoxyGrandpa12 -lun~ ! Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
-lun~ !
Sep 5th 2019 at 7:28:41 PM

Should the Moral Event Horizon subpages be Spoilers Off? I'm leaning yes since I feel a similar aura there to Complete Monster.

Also, what of the Trakeena entry here? The show's CM Deviot became one with Trakeena before the act occurred impairing the latter's moral agency, so that would be Deviot's MEH, and Trakeena's MEH must have occurred before the Fusion Dance.

Update: Since no one responded in time, I've taken the liberty of fixing the Trakeena entry myself.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Sep 18th 2019 at 2:49:45 PM

FoxyGrandpa12 -lun~ ! Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
-lun~ !
Sep 18th 2019 at 6:15:14 PM

I tried to refrain from doing this, but I'm bumping the thread for a good reason.

There's some dispute over whether or not Trakeena can be accountable in terms of moral agency for the Stingwingers. TV Lubber says that Deviot was dead before Trakeena caused the Stingwinger suicide bombs, but the PR CM page says that "The absorption of [Deviot]'s evil soul drives Trakeena completely over the edge, leading her to murder her mentor, Villimax, use her men as suicide bombers, and try to regain her human form by stealing the life energy of others." So yeah, I believe that Deviot crossed it by "ambush[ing] Trakeena, forc[ing] her into the cocoon, and fus[ing] with her"

Sep 18th 2019 at 6:21:08 PM

That was Trakeena's doing. Deviot was dead.

Trakeena confirmed it herself: "I'm fine, but Deviot's not. He's finished!".

And she was already planning on destroying Terra Venture BEFORE she killed Deviot in the cocoon and absorbed his personality.

Quote: "They'll wish they never left the Lost Galaxy when I'm done."

Plus, Deviot or no, Trakeena was fully responsible for killing Villamax, especially since she was the one who sent Treacheron to his death. She was already a constant backstabber to begin with.

Edited by TVLubber on Sep 18th 2019 at 6:28:10 AM

FoxyGrandpa12 -lun~ ! Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
-lun~ !
Sep 18th 2019 at 6:27:32 PM

TV Lubber~ Trakenna's quote that Deviot was "finished" was clearly Deviot's soul corrupting Trakeena. Deviot's CM entry made it clear influencing Trakeena meant he could do a lot of damage even after he was dead. The CM entries are carefully curated by a consensus, so the wording in Deviot's CM is the more important word.

Anything that happened after Deviotrakeena was born, her moral agency was impaired by Deviot's aptly-named essence.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:30:37 AM

WarJay77 The googly-eyed monstrosity from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
The googly-eyed monstrosity
Sep 18th 2019 at 6:35:57 PM

What's the work exactly, and what exactly happened?

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Sep 18th 2019 at 6:36:01 PM

She never had any "moral agency" to begin with. Look what she did to Treacheron. I'm sure even without Deviot, she would've killed Villamax, anyway.

Plus, she was still out to avenge her father's death, despite Deviot.

Edited by TVLubber on Sep 18th 2019 at 6:42:11 AM

FoxyGrandpa12 -lun~ ! Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
-lun~ !
Sep 18th 2019 at 6:42:11 PM

War Jay 77~ TV Lubber~ Power Rangers Lost Galaxy. Let's see here: Deviot forces Trakeena into cocoon. Deviot dies. But Deviot's evil soul corrupts Trakeena's moral agency. Deviotrakeena (not Trakeena alone) accountable for the Stingwingers and Villamaxicide.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:44:23 AM

Sep 18th 2019 at 6:49:06 PM

Trakeena was already planning on attacking Terra Venture before she killed Deviot in the cocoon and absorbed what was left of him.

Quote: "They'll wish they never left the Lost Galaxy when I'm done."

And seeing how she drove Treacheron to his death before, Villamax was far from safe from Trakeena's Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, Deviot or no Deviot.

It's apparent that all Deviot's influence did to Trakeena was empower her.

Besides, Deviot's worst act (other than corrupting the lost Galactabeasts) was driving Scorpius to his death for his own agenda. Anything else he did afterwards was just gravy.

That doesn't take him out of CM territory, but still...

Edited by TVLubber on Sep 18th 2019 at 6:55:48 AM

FoxyGrandpa12 -lun~ ! Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
-lun~ !
Sep 18th 2019 at 7:05:08 PM

Very well. I'll discuss this issue with the CM thread.

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