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Moral Event Horizon cleanup

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Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1076: Mar 28th 2022 at 4:46:06 PM

So ~Bullman do you have possible writeups for the OUAT characters now that you have explained who counts.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1077: Mar 28th 2022 at 4:57:22 PM

I will as soon as I can. I have a lot of real life stuff going on right now.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 28th 2022 at 6:58:35 AM

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Koopa22 Since: Feb, 2021 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#1078: Apr 1st 2022 at 10:16:14 AM

I need some help both writing and determining a Moral Event Horizon example.

So in the Inanimate Insanity episode Mine Your Own Business, we are shown six flashbacks of MePhone4 and Steve Cobs (who created MePhone4 and is essentially a father to him). The first five are harmless enough (although showing that Cobs is a bad parent), but it is the final one that I think contains an example.

In it, we see MePhone4 walking through a dark, abandoned room containing Cobs' creations, which have been deactivated. He comes across a broken phone. It reactivates, spouting out a very muffled recorded message, before regaining consciousness. But all he does is repeat Please, Cobs, don't. again and again before screaming in terror, implying that Cobs did something to him that traumatized him.

I think this is a pretty clear-cut example of a MEH, but there's just one problem: Can it count as a MEH if we don't get to see the action, but we see the results? And how would I word it on the example page? I can provide context if needed.

Simultaneously hands-on and hands-off with my life.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1079: Apr 1st 2022 at 10:45:06 AM

I don't think so. What's the action? Does it change the narrative portrayal any? Is the character irredeemable?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Koopa22 Since: Feb, 2021 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#1080: Apr 1st 2022 at 11:18:40 AM

Action: That is the thing, we do not get an action. We just get a strong implication that he did something to him.

Changes portrayal: Yes. After seeing this, MePhone4 runs out of Cobs' headquarters, taking MePad with him. He then deletes his memories of Cobs forever, until the events of the episode.

Narratively up until this point Cobs was a creepy fake-friendly guy who was hinted to have a greater plan: this is the first horrific action he’s done story-wise (Or implied to have done).

Irredeemable: Unsure. Based on the effects I thought he was (as the phone was his creation, whom from what I can tell was pretty loyal) but without knowing the action I cannot say for certain.

Simultaneously hands-on and hands-off with my life.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1081: Apr 1st 2022 at 11:20:47 AM

Seem the irredeemability of the act (and it does need to be a specific act) and character is sort of the whole point of Moral Event Horizon. If you can't undoubtedly call the character "irredeemable" by the standards of the work after this, then it can't qualify as a Moral Event Horizon. It's too ambiguous.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 1st 2022 at 2:21:08 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Koopa22 Since: Feb, 2021 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#1082: Apr 1st 2022 at 11:24:55 AM

Understood, thanks for the help.

Simultaneously hands-on and hands-off with my life.
DecafGrub47393 Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#1083: Apr 13th 2022 at 4:43:04 PM

the Batman Animated Series subpage has too few examples for a subpage. Maybe its examples can be moved to a page for the DCAU.

Edited by DecafGrub47393 on Apr 18th 2022 at 7:56:33 AM

Here's looking at you, kid.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1084: Apr 25th 2022 at 10:09:14 PM

Here is my attempt at the OUAT entries from the OG show (I will do Wonderland later):

  • Once Upon a Time:
    • Malcolm crosses it in a flashbackd when he abandoned his son, Rumplestiltskin, all for the sake of power and eternal youth. This moment is where Malcolm striped himself of any good and fully becomes Peter Pan, a monster willing to kill anyone and do anything simply for his own amusement.
    • Isla crosses by ordering the massacre of all magical beings including Gothel's family. In this moment, she graduates from racist heiress to full-blown villain, leading to Gothel's Start of Darkness, and the creation of the Land Without Magic.
    • Gothel strips herself of any sympathy her backstory could generate when after drugging Hook to conceive a child, she simply abandons her newly-born daughter to be forever imprisoned in the tower instead of her.
    • Prince James is originally simply selfish prince. However, James becomes a legit villain when after tricking friendly giant Anton into taking him to the land of the giants, James proceeds to lead Jack in massacring the giants before abandoning her to die.
    • Originally a Tragic Villain, Fiona, the Black Fairy strips herself of any sympathy when she tortures a boy for hours in an attempt to punish her grandson, Gideon because he disobeyed her and to prove that Gideon will never be a hero.

Thoughts?

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Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1086: Apr 26th 2022 at 6:37:26 AM

[up][up] I see some spelling and grammar issues but they can be fixed easily.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1087: Apr 26th 2022 at 9:31:40 AM

How about now:

  • Once Upon a Time:
    • Malcolm crossed it in a flashback when he abandoned his son, Rumplestiltskin, all for the sake of power and eternal youth. This moment is where Malcolm stripped himself of any good and fully becomes Peter Pan, a monster willing to kill anyone and do anything simply for his own amusement.
    • Isla crosses by ordering the massacre of all magical beings including Gothel's family. In this moment, she graduates from racist heiress to full-blown villain, leading to Gothel's Start of Darkness and the creation of the Land Without Magic.
    • Gothel strips herself of any sympathy her backstory could generate when, after drugging Hook to conceive a child, she simply abandons her newly-born daughter to be forever imprisoned in the tower instead of her.
    • Prince James is originally simply a selfish prince. However, James becomes a legit villain when, after tricking friendly giant Anton into taking him to the land of the giants, he proceeds to lead Jack in massacring the giants before abandoning her to die.
    • Originally a Tragic Villain, Fiona, the Black Fairy strips herself of any sympathy when she tortures a boy for hours in an attempt to punish her grandson, Gideon, because he disobeyed her and to prove that he will never be a hero.

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MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1088: Apr 26th 2022 at 1:05:58 PM

[tup] Yeah that's perfect.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1090: Apr 26th 2022 at 1:20:28 PM

Coll added I will work on the Wonderland one in a bit.

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MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#1091: Apr 28th 2022 at 8:55:21 AM

Reposting from Ask the Tropers:

Reviewing YMMV.Love Victor and saw these:

  • Moral Event Horizon: Father Lawrence scaring Adrian into thinking that Victor was going to hell for having a boyfriend, despite him accepting Victor happily that morning. This doesn’t sit well with Isabel.
    • Isabel herself crosses this when she deliberately sabotages the meal she cooked for Victor’s friends after seeing him and Benji kiss.
    • Even the biggest Benji supporters agree that he crossed a line when he outed Victor to Adrien while fighting with Isabel.
    • While it’s understandable given how no one wanted Mia to move, Lake almost crosses this when she tried to hack Harold’s Twitter account to say something that’ll get him “lightly cancelled” in an effort to stop his Stanford job from following through. Thankfully Andrew stops her before it’s too late.
    • Harold going back on his promise to Mia and accepting the Stanford position that will uproot his family yet again.

Now, none of these really fit the Moral Event Horizon, and I was about to delete but I know this trope has caused problems in the past so I thought I might post here for a review before I make changes.

And this might need to go to Trope Finder, but do we have a trope for when someone crosses the line that's not as character-defining as MEH is?

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#1092: Apr 28th 2022 at 9:43:57 AM

[up] They certainly seem too mild. However the defining trait of MEH is that the narrative treats them as villains afterwards. Do any of these moments change the character's treatment? I suspect it didn't, because being a drama it has to keep the regulars somewhat sympathetic, but I'd like to hear from someone who knows the show.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#1093: Apr 28th 2022 at 9:56:21 AM

[up]I watched and none really qualify as they are treated more like bad decisions on their parts instead of completely turning them into villains.

UFOYeah Since: Mar, 2022
#1094: Apr 28th 2022 at 11:25:00 AM

[up]In that case, they do not qualify by any means, and should be cut.

DecafGrub47393 Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#1095: Apr 28th 2022 at 1:29:01 PM

I'm trying to figure out a good write-up for Tarkin, who is definitely portrayed as irredeemable after blowing up Alderaan.

Here's looking at you, kid.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1096: Apr 28th 2022 at 1:31:11 PM

I think Tarkin was a character discussed extensively on the TRS thread. The consensus we came to was that he was always an irredeemable bastard, and that act didn't change the course of his narrative or even cement him as more evil than we knew him to be.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
DecafGrub47393 Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#1097: Apr 28th 2022 at 1:35:03 PM

On the DCU MEH page, The Joker has multiple crimes listed. It can only be crossed once.

  • While The Joker was always portrayed as a total psychopath, it is generally considered that he crossed the point of no return in 1988 when, within a few months, he crippled Batgirl for life and beat the 2nd, still-teenaged Robin (Jason Todd) to death with a crowbar. If that doesn't count, then he did it during the No Man's Land arc, luring Sarah Gordon out with a bunch of kidnapped babies and murdering her in cold blood. The act is so vile that even he takes no joy out of it, walking out with a frown on his face for the police to arrest him.
    • He's breaking out all the stops in Death of the Family, but one particular stand out point is giving the hyenas, that he and Harley raised, rabies. These are pets that he and Harley personally raised since they were babies! All this to spite Harley for not waiting and praying for his return (never mind that he didn't leave any indication that he was going to) and for getting together with Deadshot.

Here's looking at you, kid.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1098: Apr 28th 2022 at 1:37:52 PM

The Joker has so many Depending on the Author iterations and twists that I don't think any singular act can qualify for him. For individual comic runs, maybe, but not in general.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
DecafGrub47393 Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#1099: Apr 28th 2022 at 1:55:45 PM

The one for Death of the Family is the only one of these in the New 52 continuity, and should apply for that particular Joker. This particular act is what causes Harley to leave Joker for good, which has stuck through Rebirth.

Edited by DecafGrub47393 on Apr 28th 2022 at 9:19:23 AM

Here's looking at you, kid.
MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#1100: Apr 29th 2022 at 6:07:49 PM

Hey, do we still have that MEH criteria template from earlier in this thread? Because I feel like that may be necessary to approve of future examples.

Edited by MrMediaGuy2 on Apr 29th 2022 at 6:08:07 AM


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