Moral Event Horizon cleanup

Canonically, Anakin is redeemed in Episode VI, so the MEH was not crossed by definition, George Lucas' writing skills aside.

edited 30th Nov '17 12:44:59 PM by Fighteer

Okay, thanks.

Those comic examples strike me as a bit vague. If both Vader and this other character believe each other to have committed heinous acts, and they're both villains, then isn't it Evil Versus Evil? I'm afraid I don't know the context. Regardless, it seems that you can't have it both ways. And Vader cannot have any MEH in a canon work, since he is redeemed in ROTJ. That's what we've been saying. It doesn't matter how horrible he is at any given point.

Same with Morit vs Aiolin — are these both evil characters trying to see who's Eviler than Thou? If so, was there ever any hint that either could be redeemed or seek redemption prior to these acts? The work's presentation matters as much as anything. "Bob murders Cindy, and that marks the point at which he becomes an unrepentant mass killer" could be an MEH. "Bob murders Cindy after murdering a bunch of other people and then goes on to murder a bunch more" could not.

edited 30th Nov '17 12:54:32 PM by Fighteer

I'll Cut both Vader and aphra as there both bad guys, so I don't think betraying each other really is a Moral Event Horizon crossing.

EDIT : Actually yeah he would have still been a bad guy, so Molit can go as well.

edited 30th Nov '17 12:57:45 PM by miraculous

I think MoralEventHorizon.South Park might need to be looked at, as nearly every major character is on the page. In particular, it has a "The entirety of South Park America crosses it" example, à la "Boys of Bummer".

edited 1st Dec '17 6:26:27 AM by Zuxtron

Series with Negative Continuity shouldn't have MEH examples because everything is set back to the status quo next episode without consequences.

And groups as a whole shouldn't be applicable. That was a rule that other cleanup threads have set for good reason.

edited 1st Dec '17 6:45:02 AM by DocJamore

South Park does have stricter continuity than something like The Simpsons. I think a fair amount of the examples are treated as horrible in-universe and while they're going for laughs, you're still supposed to see that the characters have definitely crossed a line of no return.

The whole "Britney's New Look" example can be cut because groups can't collectively pass the horizon. Characters like Kyle, Wendy, Randy, Principal Victoria can't count since they're still treated as characters to root for, or at least find their antics amusing. Saddam Hussein can be cut because while he is a villain, there's no particular moment where he crossed the line.

Characters like Cartman, the Christmas Critters, Bedrager, Miss Stevenson, and Gerald are depicted as absolute trash after their respective moments, and they're treated as seriously as a show like South Park can. I admittedly haven't gotten around to watching the latest season, so I don't know about any examples from those episodes.

edited 1st Dec '17 7:57:05 AM by chasemaddigan

To expand on that a bit, if the work itself treats a particular moment for a particular character as a line crossed that renders them irredeemable — the narrative forever after depicts them as a villain that must be opposed and/or destroyed, rather than a character with a chance at turning back to the good side (or whatever passes for it in South Park) — then it's a pretty solid candidate.

Now, being South Park, it could certainly parody redemption arcs for these characters, but as long as they aren't actually redeemed, then the examples can be kept.

Note that a Moral Event Horizon can go along with a Face–Heel Turn, but they aren't always the same thing or the same moment. A character who's turned evil may some day be redeemed, and a character may turn evil long before they commit the singular act that makes them a monster... or they may never commit such an act.

edited 5th Dec '17 6:27:53 AM by Fighteer

Just so you know, the Moral Event Horizon entry for Xenoblade Chronicles may need to be cut slightly. Klaus is confirmed to be a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds in Xenoblade 2 and Zanza is the evil half of Klaus, making him Made of Evil.

I've cut the misuse from South Park.

This example was recently added in Anime & Manga:

Meowth crosses it when he manipulates an amnesiac Pikachu, even having the audacity to claim that he SAVED the electric mouse! He is fully aware that what [[{The Mysterious Mr.Enter}he's doing is wrong, but he's gonna do it anyway]]! Jessie and James cross it when they go along with it!

edited 9th Dec '17 6:19:42 PM by MagBas

Whoever added that clearly doesn't know to preview before saving. And although I haven't watched the Pokemon anime in over a decade, I'm pretty sure that Team Rocket is the most well-known example of Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain and I'd be surprised if they really changed that drastically since then considering how the show has a reputation for being formulaic.

It hasn't changed at all. They still all have redeeming traits, and it never changes that status quo anyway. Meowth couldn't have possibly crossed it because he always comes back with something sympathetic/etc.

Did The Mysterious Mr. Enter even review a Pokémon episode? Or did whoever add that just try to shoehorn in one of his catchphrases? I've honestly never watched any of his videos, but definitely cut Meowth's entry.

South Park has the most broken heinous standard of all. So much is Crosses the Line Twice it's almost impossible to be considered horrendous. Only rare moments like Cartman's little Titus Andronicus situation stand out.

Should be noticed that a character can still be sympathetic after crossing the MEH. It's just that it's a black spot and they can't be properly forgiven or make up for such an act ever

Brought this up in ATT regarding minor villain Bana in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I originally noted his MEH:

Bana crosses it when he attempts to force Lila (an artificial Blade) to get back up and fight even knowing full well that doing so will overload her circuits and cause her to shut down for good. Despite her breaking the control device and the subsequent beating he's given, his attitude remains unrepentant and It's All About Me.

It was removed with the edit reason of "Since he also is close to and loves his parents."

That would only invalidate Complete Monster and certainly doesn't redeem him, especially since there's still more: He attempts to assassinate two heads of state during some peace talks in order to get a war to break out to make more money. He succeeds in killing one party member's little brother (but he does get better). And the heartfelt letters to his mother reveal him as a higherup in a terrorist organization that his beloved father is the head of. There's even more under his Bad Boss entry on the game's Characters page.

So despite showing he loves his parents, having an entry for him should be no contest and the actual discussion should be on when exactly he crossed the line.

Yeah. I think giving an entry seems fine.

I sort of miss when this trope was based on what audiences deemed unforgivable rather than being an "in-universe, in-narrative examples only" trope only for Complete Monsters or non-CM villains who don't get redeemed in the end.

But if this is to be the way of the trope from now on, then I second that the Once Upon a Time page really needs to be cleaned up. Cora, Regina, Rumpelstiltskin, Captain Hook, Zelena, the Snow Queen, Snow and Charming, Ursula, and the Evil Queen all have no business being on there because they were all redeemed in the end, and in the case of Snow and Charming, were freaking heroes on the show.

From YMMV.Future Diary:

• Moral Event Horizon:
  • Yukiteru and Yuno betraying and slaughtering the 8th's orphanage.
  • Yuno might have also crossed it when she lies to Yuki and convinces him to kill his friends, all of whom were only trying to help him; she even delivers an Evil Laugh when she learns about Yuki shooting Hinata. Of course to some fans, this might also be the moment that solidifies how awesome she is.
    • It could be argued that she crossed it even earlier, when she deliberately sets off several of the bombs that Minene planted in the school, thereby murdering dozens of students out of spite, just because some of them had turned on Yuki to save themselves.
  • On that note, Minene taking the school hostage and planting those bombs qualifies as her crossing, unless she was already over the line to start with since she was a notorious killer even before she became a Diary Holder.
  • Tsubaki crosses this when she orders her followers to strip off Yuno's clothing... and to gang-rape her, all so she could lure Yukki out of his hiding place.
  • Mur Mur crosses this when she undoes the positive future in Paradox by deliberately erases everyone's memories and goes back in time to make sure that the 2nd is still alive and kills them all. She also uses the wounded Yuki to prevent Akise from stopping her plans.
  • Akise in the manga crossed it when he abandons Yuki's friends to let them die by Yuki's hands, just so he can get the chance to kill Yuno. Even Yuki is disgusted by this. Defied in the anime, where he actually tries to stop Yuki.

The show runs on Black-and-Gray Morality, and has Villain Protagonists, but some of these are dubious:

• Yuno has three separate moments listed, one of which is shared with Yukiteru. Not only does it have bad Example Indentation, but the "third" one listed (which is the first one to actually happen) probably doesn't qualify as she's still depicted in a sympathetic way afterwards.
• Minene's moment (which is unnecessarily spoilered out since it happens in only the second episode) also probably isn't an example, as she goes on to become one of the show's most sympathetic characters.

edited 31st Dec '17 11:40:35 AM by Zuxtron

Anakin Skywalker was included again in Revenge of the Sith.

Cleaned it, left a note. Edit: Or not. My browser is behaving badly this morning.

edited 6th Feb '18 5:35:57 AM by Fighteer

Bringing up these examples from Fresh Meat:

• Moral Event Horizon:
  • Dan may have had every right to be angry about Kingsley issuing a formal complaint about the quality of his teaching, but he crossed this when, at the end of a field trip, he deliberately forced Kingsley to chase after his van, on a broken leg no less, then drove off without him, leaving him stranded in the Pennines, which is over 100 miles from Manchester.
  • If Vod's mother hadn't already crossed it by telling Vod TO HER FACE that she wishes she'd aborted her, she definitely did when she blew up at Vod and all the other housemates in response to Vod calling her "a shit mother", half-wrecking the house in rage.

Yuki and Yuno can't cross the line. Yuno is given plenty of sympathetic backstory and commits a Heroic Sacrifice after those moments while Yuki is given a happy ending. Minene is also given heroic moments after that listed crime and gets a good ending. I would keep Tsubaki and Mur Mur's entries. I never read Paradox so I can't comment on Akise.

edited 31st May '18 1:54:26 PM by PhiSat

While I agree that they should be cut, Villains with Sympathetic backstories and a Freudian Excuse CAN cross the Moral Event Horizon. The MEH means "ireedemable" not "totally unsympathetic and evil"

edited 31st May '18 2:26:28 PM by KazuyaProta

So...it's been about 3 days, any chance someone could take a look at the examples I brought up above