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Moral Event Horizon cleanup

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PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#751: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:02:07 PM

It shares a lot of the same critera that Complete Monster does, only it applies to an action, rather than a person.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Apr 30th 2021 at 3:03:18 PM

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jandn2014 SMILE! from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
SMILE!
#752: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:09:02 PM

What criteria are you even talking about? Complete Monster is for extremely heinous characters with no redeeming qualities. Moral Event Horizon is about actions that characters commit that mark a clear shift in their portrayal and make it clear that they can’t be redeemed.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#753: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:09:46 PM

Similar criteria doesn't mean it's the exact same trope.

To wit:

  • CM needs the character to be more than just irredeemable, they need to be devoid of any potentially redeeming or sympathetic qualities. MEH doesn't care if a character has sympathetic attributes, just that they can never redeem themselves after what they've done. A character can even be the protagonist (Like Bojack and Walter), and they can show humanity and positive qualities. This isn't about finding the worst character, but just characters who can't possibly redeem themselves.
  • CM compares characters to other characters in the work to find the worst possible standard. MEH is only concerned with the one villain being discussed, in isolation.
  • And obviously, CM is about the character, and MEH is an act. All CM's have crossed the MEH at some point, even if only in the backstory, but not all MEH-crosses are CM. All MEH asks is, "When did the character cross the line?"
  • Our other criteria is things like "Did the character's portrayal shift?" and "Was it taken seriously?" and "Are there no other moments that might qualify more?" In fact, the only criteria that seems to really match CM is "Can they be redeemed?", which is a given, since the trope is about irredeemability, and that criteria has always been there.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#754: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:20:11 PM

I think it's just the whole thread approval thing that really rubbed me the wrong way. It just makes it even more identical to CM to me. Plus, a lot of these proposals just seem like "they're 100% evil after they did this very bad thing, and nothing good they do matters anymore".

Edited by PlasmaPower on Apr 30th 2021 at 3:25:21 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#755: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:30:42 PM

There's not actually a "thread approval process". We're not making this thread like CM in that all examples must be discussed here first. The EP system is specifically for unclear cases so we can analyze them deeper and come to consensus.

As for your second point, well...yeah, that's literally what MEH entails. A lot of the times the shift after the act is so radical that the character is portrayed as evil from then on, but that's different from being a Complete Monster.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 30th 2021 at 2:31:35 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#756: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:35:02 PM

[up] Ohhhhhhhhhh. I think I might've misread what the new criteria for MEH mentioned in the TRS thread.

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#757: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:37:42 PM

MEH doesn't mean they become Complete Monster. I wouldn't even say they have to become "evil" because not every work defines characters as strictly "evil." It means "irredeemable." They can be a complex character and have sympathetic qualities, but the main point is that they can never improve their moral standing every again, and never be considered a "good person" in any regard.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#758: Apr 30th 2021 at 11:38:12 PM

Some of it got voted away recently after a lot of discussion. The new criteria boils down to Sep's post here.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#759: May 1st 2021 at 1:35:38 AM

I got an EP from Arc of a Scythe I want to post since I'm a bit unsure if it meets the requirements.

What's the work?

Arc of a Scythe is a trilogy of novels set in the future where seemingly every problem humanity faces has been solved, people can be revived from death as long as their body is intact, and the government is replaced by a Benevolent A.I. called the Thunderhead. The only way people can die is if they are "gleaned" by Scythes, people specially chosen to carry out the grim task of killing people. One of the main characters is a you man named Greyson Tolliver, who was basically raised by the Thunderhead, unfortunately for him the Thunderhead used him as a tool to foil some evil schemes by corrupt Scythes which resulted in him going into hiding to avoid being killed by them. He finds refuge by joining a Tone Cult, a religion that worships a "Great Vibration," at the end of the 2nd book the Thunderhead refuses to directly talk with anyone except Greyson. In the 3rd book Greyson uses his line to the Thunderhead to provide aid to people, setting himself up as "The Toll" a messiah figure in the Tone Cults so they will protect him. However his 2nd in command, one Curate Mendoza, wants to set Greyson up as a figurehead so he has all of the power but Greyson is having none of it.

What's the deed

So for additional context (sorry the series is complicated) the Big Bad of the series, Scythe Goddard, has taken control of most of the Scythes in the Americas and one of his biggest rivals is Scythe Tenkamenin who lives in the city of Port Remembrance. Mendoza, wishing to push Greyson to take more extreme actions and the curry favor with Goddard, secretly armed a fanatical group of Tone Cultists near Port Remembrance and directed them to attack Tenkamenin, which results in the Cult tearing it's way through the city, burning numerous people on a pyre so they can't be revived from the dead. As a result of this, Greyson sees it fit to have the leader of the Cult gleaned, with it being implied that Mendoza wanted him to kill more.

How was Mendoza portrayed before and after this act?

Here's my issue with this. Mendoza is consistently portrayed as a sneaky, underhanded man vying for power and the reveal that he was behind the attack doesn't come until much later in the book when Greyson kicks him out and he teams up with Goddard. The problem is that after it's revealed that he was behind the attack he quickly fades into the background, only showing up in one scene later where he does nothing except whine and freak out and then dies. The reveal does recontextualize his previous words and actions and the attack itself has a lot of ramifications on the plot but I'm not really sure if there's a big enough shift in his character since he looses all prominence after we learn that he caused the attack.

Does the act stand out compared to his other actions?

Most certainly, he doesn't do anything nearly as bad before this and afterwards his crimes are trying to start a war between the Cults and Scythes (which is what got him kicked out of Greyson's group) and later offering to pull off similar attacks on Goddard's rivals in exchange for more power. Both of these are bad but the attack on Port Remembrance is a horrifying slaughter of people and the only crime if his that kills anyone.

Conclusion?

What do you think?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#760: May 2nd 2021 at 5:36:38 PM

Super late, but looking at this, I'll admit that I'm also concerned about the lack of a noticeable characterization shift. If he's consistently portrayed as a slime ball and then gets Out of Focus following the deed, I think it's gonna be a no.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#761: May 2nd 2021 at 5:46:05 PM

I haven't had time to read it yet either, so I'm also late.

Yeah, since he's pushed to the background as soon as this happens, I'm also on the fence.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#762: May 2nd 2021 at 9:53:28 PM

Alright let's give this a try.

Who is Russ Cargill?

He is the CEO of the Environmental Protection Agency or EPA in The Simpsons movie with the sole objective of wiping out Springfield.

What is the act?

Tricking the gullible No Celebrities Were Harmed President Schwarzenegger into approving the demolition of Springfield which previously he had sealed Springfield for the safety of America due to the pollution, this act shows he is willing to bomb an entire town of innocents for an outright petty reason. While the President shows reluctance at the second option, he approves the first option involving the dome without realizing what he had done. The president even says that he should be aware of what he's approving, but Cargill is extra sadistic about this. And drops a countdown square bomb into the dome, which is only stopped by the heroics of Homer and Bart Simpson.

How does this act change the portrayal of the character? And how is it deplorable by the standards of the story?

Before ordering the bombing of Springfield, Cargill was a Laughably Evil over the top villain on par with Hank Scorpio. But this act cemented his status as a truly irredeemable villain. I mean bombing a town, and if you know anything about The Simpsons, Springfield is a pretty large city, because ONE person (Homer) didn't obey the keep Springfield clean act by Mayor Quimby? Yeah... That's petty as hell. And if you had any doubts about him redeeming himself when cornered, he tries to kill Bart and Homer in Springfield Gorge showing he has no qualms about not only hurting people responsible, but also the entire town of Springfield.

But I'd say him tricking the president into bombing Springfield is what pushes him over the line, as after that he is taken incredibly seriously by everyone.

This also stands out as while other villains either don't have the same horrific impact Cargill did (Cecil Terwilliger) affect solely one person (Cesar and Ugolin), or are inconsistent with their character or are played for laughs (Sideshow Bob and Mr. Burns, and any reoccurring character such as Seymour Skinner whenever he's a Dean Bitterman like the time he left a bunch of students most notably Uter to die because they were immigrants or didn't have permission slips or joined in the bullying of Uter, this counts as Kick the Dog not this trope, or the town and Joe LaBoot themselves bullying Bart to Suicide over missing a fly ball costing them the Little League championships coming to mind). Cargill's act says No this guy is evil, with the only potential redeeming quality of him being that he's wiping out a town of Jerkasses. But that is no excuse.

Verdict?

Keep the act of the most heinous villain Springfield has faced.

Edited by Klavice on May 2nd 2021 at 10:00:58 AM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#763: May 3rd 2021 at 8:47:36 AM

[tdown] Mendoza. The lack of focus afterwards is hard for me to mentally overcome, although if he becomes a greater focus in later works in the franchise, I'm happy to revote.

[tup] Russ Cargill

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#764: May 3rd 2021 at 12:10:19 PM

Yes to Cargil

[up]It is very unlikely that he'll show up again mostly because I don't think there will be any more books.

RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#765: May 5th 2021 at 4:59:44 AM

This is from the The Simpsons S18E18 "The Boys of Bummer":

  • Moral Event Horizon: LaBoot crosses the line when he starts to encourage the rest of the people to harass Bart into the Despair Event Horizon (after pretending to be sympathetic towards Bart so he would tell his side of the story). Worse still, not only is LaBoot a massive Hypocrite who made the same mistake that Bart did, but it is implied that other children were also attacked before with similar results, giving LaBoot a body count.

The page has a complaining problem, with many entries describing LaBoot as evil or the villain of the episode and this feels like a continuation of that (his name is potholed to The Sociopath). At the very least, suggesting the character has killed people seems like a bit of a stretch.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#766: May 5th 2021 at 11:04:18 AM

[up] The page does have a complaining problem, Jesus. Even the image caption is attacking the episode.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#767: May 5th 2021 at 11:40:44 AM

[up] I gotta admit, that caption is a clever Double Entendre since it also works in the episode's context.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#768: May 5th 2021 at 11:42:07 AM

Might want to move that issue to the complaining thread, guys [lol]

I think that MEH example can be cut.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#769: May 5th 2021 at 9:28:54 PM

Uhh a baseball player with a bodycount?

What, did he heckle like 5 other kids? Where's the implication? It's literally just Kick the Dog. Also the guy admittedly tries to save Bart when he falls off unlike Chief Wiggum's "Jump!" comment. Yeah it doesn't make the episode any better, but I think this is what they call taking a comedic fictional series too seriously.

Honestly the reason this episode doesn't work is like the Spongebob episode Breath of Fresh Squidward, Bart hasn't done anything to deserve this treatment and just feels like years upon years of Laser-Guided Karma built up to a bad conclusion. It's very complain-y though.

Honestly I kind of ironically like the episode, because preteen/teenage suicide due to heckling is rampant these days be it through social media or in person. So it's relevant these days and anyone who has considered self harm can relate to Bart. And unlike the numerous Moe Suicide jokes, it's actually Played for Drama.

Edited by Klavice on May 5th 2021 at 9:33:39 AM

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#770: May 6th 2021 at 2:06:47 PM

Would this count as a Moral Event Horizon?

What is the Work?

Valentine is a 2001 Slasher Movie released at the tail end of the whodunit slasher trend started by Scream (1996) where a group of friends start receiving threatening Valentines signed J.M. and are starting to get picked off by a mysterious figure wearing a Cupid mask. This particular MEH is crossed by one of the protagonists of the film, in a two-fold process.

Who crosses the MEH and what was done?

Dorothy Wheeler (Jessica Capshaw in the present day) is a Lonely Rich Kid and member of the central group of friends who was kinda the loser of the group, often derided for her weight. In the first scene of the film, taking place at a middle-school Valentine's Day dance, Jeremy Melton asks four girls to dance with him: Shelley Fisher, Lily Voight, Paige Prescott, and Kate Davies. All four reject him; the first three insultingly while Kate is softer. Looking for someone else to dance with, Jeremy asks Dorothy, who is sitting in the bleachers looking all lonely. Dorothy takes Jeremy under the bleachers with her and they start kissing; however, they're found by a Gang of Bullies who start teasing them, so Dorothy lies and says that Jeremy sexually assaulted her; he is doused in punch, stripped and beaten, then later sent to juvenile hall and later a mental institution.

Fast forward to present. About 40 minutes into the film, Shelley and Lily have already been offed by the Cupid-faced assassin and the remaining three friends are being questioned by Detective Vaughn, who's been assigned to the case. Vaughn shows them an unsympathetic remembrance card sent to Shelley's parents, but this one is signed Jeremy Melton, making it clear that he's the Cupid Killer who killed their friends (well, just Shelley since the gals don't know Lily's dead until the third act). Dorothy and Paige repeat the lie that Jeremy assaulted Dorothy at the dance, but when Vaughn leaves, Dorothy admits to Kate and Paige that she lied about Jeremy assaulting her; Kate is shocked that Dorothy would ruin someone's life like that while Paige tries to downplay the threat Jeremy poses. The thing is that Dorothy isn't really sorry about what she did; instead she tries to justify her actions by citing how unattractive she was in middle school.

Eventually her actions come back to bite when Jeremy, now living under the identity of Adam Carr, attacks Dorothy during the third act and dresses her in his costume, then throws her at Kate when she rounds a corner while searching for the killer. When Dorothy gets up, Adam guns down Dorothy and "unmasks" her, pinning his murders on her as she had done him.

Does it change anything about the portrayal of the character? And is it deplorable by the standards of the story?

While Dorothy has a lot of psychological issues as shown in the first act of the film (this comes up again near the end as well), the fact that she went and ruined Jeremy's life by framing him for sexual assault without a second thought is the direct reason why he's gunning for her head and that of her friends because they corroborated her (minus Kate because she wasn't part of the Frame-Up). And she doesn't exactly show remorse over framing him when the truth comes out; contrast with Kate who is shocked that Dorothy went and did that to someone while Paige went along with the Frame-Up and tries to dismiss Jeremy as a threat. At this point any sympathy to be had for her is definitely gone.

Edited by k410ren on Aug 17th 2021 at 10:47:56 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#771: May 7th 2021 at 4:28:52 PM

I'm inclined to say yes to Dorothy's False Rape Accusation

RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#772: May 8th 2021 at 6:32:30 AM

This is from the YMMV page for The Simpsons S9 E3 "Lisa's Sax":

  • Moral Event Horizon: The Preschool Teacher's treatment of Bart. SHE IS THE REASON why Bart is Bart today. What makes it worse is that Bart was just 5 years old and her actions made Bart actually consider suicide. To specify, the teacher basically wrote off Bart as a lost cause because he didn't catch on to things as quickly as the other kids:
    Bart: (singing) B-I-*clap*-*clap*-*clap*-O and Bingo was his name-o.
    Teacher: (writing on a clip board) Extra clap; not college material.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#773: May 8th 2021 at 11:36:25 AM

[up] From what I heard, the teacher's first appearance was that episode, so it's not changing any portrayal. Plus it sounds Played for Laughs.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#774: May 8th 2021 at 12:17:31 PM

Any other opinions on Dorothy?

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#775: May 8th 2021 at 5:15:25 PM

If one shot villains can't make the cut, should we remove Russ Cargill too? Or is it different for him since he's from the Big Damn Movie.

Edited by Klavice on May 8th 2021 at 5:15:51 AM


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