Moral Event Horizon cleanup

The "NC murdering an entire family" thing shouldn't count under any definition because it's a single gag that isn't even the worst thing the character has ever done. The show doesn't really have continuity except with certain subplots. He's murdered others before and he's murdered others after. There's no significant change in his character or the narrative before or after that gag. The entry reads like somebody just found the joke too far.

Also editing misused sinkholes out of a Dethroning Moment entry is the one time you're allowed to edit an entry. See Dethroning Moment of Suck: one of the only times you're allowed to edit is "Fixing red links and other broken links, renamed tropes, and examples of Square Peg, Round Trope." This falls into the latter.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 17th 2020 at 9:40:37 AM

Right. I agree with those being deleted.

The issue we need to hammer out is if the character can be redeemed in-universe, If they need to be objectively evil, how subjective it is, things like that. It's not a question of if we should count comedy sketches people disliked.

Also, can plug the sandbox here. Contribute if you want.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 17th 2020 at 9:57:22 AM

Someone made a YMMV page for Recap.Donkey Kong Country S 1 E 5 Kong For A Day just so they could put this on the page...

• Moral Event Horizon: All of DK's friends and even the Crystal Coconut cross it here, where Donkey Kong gets framed for various things that K. Rool and his Kremlings have done. Every one of DK's friends turn their backs on him: Cranky strips him of his title of future ruler, the Crystal Coconut appoints Diddy as the future ruler, and DK is banished to the White Mountains. Except the crimes they believe DK committed are just minor inconveniences, like losing Funky's surfboard, flirting with Dixie, and leaving a banana peel on the ground that Candy slips on. Cranky meanwhile blames DK for wrecking his hut for no reason other than leaving a banana peel behind, a banana peel that Krusha left on the floor as "evidence", nevermind that all the Kongs eat bananas. Considering the Crystal Coconut can also be used as a crystal ball and warn others of potential dangers on its own, it doesn't even show proof that DK did those crimes, but willingly replaces him as the future ruler. By the end of the episode, only Cranky shows any regret about what happened (he reveals the suitcase he gave DK when he was banished was full of bananas, and admits he couldn't banish him without at least letting him take some bananas with him), but everyone else still believes DK did these acts and blames him for them, and Diddy only apologizes to DK in the sense that he admits they need DK's protection from K. Rool.

You can add that YMMV page to the cutlist. No one in the entry is a villain.

Out of curiousity, would an Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist or Designated Hero be able to cross the MEH?

Well, apparently the protagonist of Red Zone Cuba did.

But I literally just made a TRS thread so we can get to the bottom of what MEH is, so let's table questions like this until the thread opens.

The Red Zone Cuba thing was a deliberate MEH by the narrative as it was a Protagonist Journey to Villain, it intentionally marked the point where the character crossed from hero to villain. The problem is that the "hero" failed to show any redeeming traits prior so didn't have any audience sympathy to loose.

One can intentionally cross the MEH and be Unintentionally Unsympathetic if UU for different reasons then portrayed as crossing the MEH.

Red Zone Cuba is a MEH/UU overlap because the MEH part was intentional. Anakin/Vader is UU as opposed to MEH as we know he was supposed to redeem himself but the Prequels failed to show enough sympathetic/redeeming traits to counterbalance his evildoing in the eyes of audiences (The Clone Wars was well received for adding that counterbalance).

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 29th 2020 at 1:09:47 AM

Very recently added on the YMMV page for Malcolm in the Middle:

• Moral Event Horizon:
  • Don't forget Francis. There is an episode where he comes back home from Alaska, Texas, or wherever else he may have been, and convinces Dewey to do a bunch of painful things in order to gain his approval and become a 'true' brother. Some of them included swallowing a bunch of fire ants from a straw and drinking either paint, infested water, or a mix of both from a paint pan. Later on, Dewey caught a disease only prominent in dirty water found in "third world countries," according to Lois. Not only did Francis torture Dewey, but likely gave him lasting damage to his health (possibly causing neurological damage), and was responsible for the deaths of at least hundreds of animals. Maybe you could make the argument that Dewey is responsible for the insect deaths, but given the fact that Francis is physically capable of killing Dewey, and the latter was abused years before then, the possibility of Dewey being responsible comes off as unlikely at best. If this isn't a sign that Francis is a villainous sociopath, I don't know what is a sign.

The use of the word "I" kind of tells me how biased this whole paragraph is. For those who never watched the show, its a Sadist Show where the brothers pick on each other and put each other through hell on a weekly basis.

Francis usually doesn't treat Dewey this way and this episode he was misguidedly trying to put Dewey through a hazing ritual to make him a true brother, because he believes that pain and humiliation are only ways to show affection in his screwed-up family.

Understandably, Dewey is pissed off at the end, and the two eventually make up. But the things Francis did this episode arent much worse than the torment the other brothers put on each other and other family members.

And the writer seems to be oddly concerned about the deaths of ants (if we count ants towards the MEH, that means that all exterminators are genocidal monsters) and that Francis is physically able to kill Dewey. Of course he is, he is an adult! Would he? No.

And the show doesnt play it like Dewey has been scarred for life or anything, hes mostly mad that he went through all that and only got a cookie from Francis as a reward.

Maybe Alternative Character Interpretation? Sorry for the long post.

Edited by antenna_ears on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:37:20 AM

Isn't Malcolm in the Middle a comedy, too? I favour cutting that example.

YMMV.Ren And Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon

• Moral Event Horizon: While Ren had a lot of sympathetic moments and redeeming qualities in the original show, in the episode "Ren Seeks Help", we witness one of Ren's most disturbing moments (even by "Adult Party" standards). Saying what he did to Stimpy is presented as this for Ren, which even he found reprehensible, but it's revealed as a child, he tortured various animals in very painful ways, especially a frog. In this episode, he's really gone off the deep end!

Can I doubt this one? Considering that Ren & Stimpy has a very Negative Continuity, this dosen't really have an impact past this episode.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Oct 2nd 2020 at 2:38:35 PM

I'd lean to cut to but want to ask about this first.

MoralEventHorizon.South Park:

• Cartman crossed the line with his Kansas City Shuffle against Scott Tenorman, in six simple words below. He's done lots of evil things since, varying in their badness, but this was where most viewers decided it was no longer in-character for him to perform an act of selflessness.
  Cartman: I made you eat your parents.
  • Cartman probably crossed it earlier in "Cherokee Hair Tampons" where he refused to donate his kidney to Kyle unless he got paid ten million dollars. Stan even responds by telling him that he is going to hell when he dies.
  • If time has diluted these examples, his intentionally infecting Kyle with HIV in "Tonsil Trouble" shows how little Cartman has changed in seven years.
  • Cartman's biggest ones come in the Coon and Friends trilogy where, after he beats up Clyde and Bradly and blackmails Captain Hindsight, he is kicked out of the superhero club, so he teams up with the dark god Cthulhu and proceeds to destroy the world's synagogues, wipe out San Francisco, banish the rest of Coon and Friends to a dark oblivion, kill all the attendance of burning man, destroys all the Whole Foods and murders Justin Bieber and his fans.
  • If there ever was a question of whether or not his attempts to change in season 20 were genuine, his abuse of Heidi in "Put It Down", "Sons A Witches", and "Doubling Down" puts the question to bed. These examples are especially notable due to how seriously they are played straight.

The MEH TRS has debated if the first example counts due to Negative Continuity (meaning the change doesn't stick), Sadist Show (meaning there's a high bar for an MEH), and Comedic Sociopathy (meaning such is played for dark comedy as opposed to serious) and asked to take here.

The Joker is a well-established example of a comedic character crossing the MEH as, even when he's portrayed as comedic as opposed to seriously he treated seriously by every sane/competent character and thus the narrative. Does the apply to Cartman?

Is there any reason the second example wouldn't be heinous enough to count? Am I right in assuming that if the first/second example count, the last three are misuses as he's already crossed the line? Is there a way to cross it more than once (eg. their first MEH is removed vie Cosmic Retcon, the crosser suffers Death of Personality so they're effectively a separate character from whom crossed the earlier MEH)?

I'd say MEH can count for Cartman, particularly the one about Scott Tenorman. Firstly, that scene has been cited by fans and the creators themselves as the moment that shifted Cartman away from a typical spoiled-brat to a full-blown sociopath who's willing to ruin people's lives for the pettiest of reasons. Second, while played for dark comedy, it's treated as horrifying in-universe by the characters. Finally, the show doesn't brush it off. Later episodes reference the incident (including the 200th episode bringing Scott back to show how warped he was from the incident) and Cartman exhibits a consistent level of awful and spiteful behaviour going forth that's mostly lasted to this day.

It's not like an episode of Family Guy where Peter does something awful, but the show presses the Reset Button and everyone acts like it never happened by the next episode.

As for the other examples, I say maybe the Coon and Friends example can count. I haven't seen much of the show past season 20, so I can't comment on how he treated Heidi though.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 3rd 2020 at 2:05:26 PM

Yeah, I think even in a show with generally Negative Continuity, a MEH can count if it marks a distinct change in how the character is portrayed, particularly one acknowledged in universe as such. The Scott Tenorman incident definitely would count by that metric.

The rest hasn't indicated a change in his behavior, it's just general awful shit which Cartman does quite often since his change in character. Giving Kyle AIDS or the Cthulu stuff never really comes back into the narrative, but the Scott Tenorman stuff does. The stuff with Heidi is just Realism-Induced Horror because it isn't that bad compared to, say, trying to revive the Nazi movement, it's just closer to home for many fans.

Hence "I think" because that's how I would define it, and may bring that up in the TRS thread. South Park doesn't have exclusively Negative Continuity especially in recent episodes anyway. Characters can be inconsistent but this episode shows the clear barrier between "brat Cartman" and "evil Cartman."

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 3rd 2020 at 2:22:37 PM

Not necessarily. I mean, it helps, but it's not a rule; TRS is still debating on it.

I am actually inclined to cut that example - "played for dark comedy" seems like it doesn't fit the trope. The concept of a Moral Event Horizon as we are discussing in the TRS topic does entail that it needs to be played seriousy to some degree, not a humour thing.

In the context of South Park, the Tenorman thing does provide drama, though it's largely retroactive given some Cerebus Syndrome. Scott seeks revenge in episodes 200/201 and it's played as seriously as a South Park episode could play things at the time.

Can I remove the Ren & Stimpy example though?

Sure, Adult Party Cartoon has no continuity and as far as I know Ren's behavior never comes back. There's a suggestion of an in-universe Noodle Incident that made Ren unforgivable but for the same reasons (plus being a Noodle Incident) that can't count either.

From YMMV.Miraculous Ladybug:

• Hawk Moth crossed it in "Cat Blanc": in the alternate timeline, he blackmailed Marinette into breaking up with Adrien so he could akumatize her, learned his son was Cat Noir when he transformed to save her, revealed Emilie's condition to him and attacked him when he refused to team up with him, and took advantage of his emotional turmoil to create one of his most dangerous akumas to date. All of this proved that, if push came to shove, he'd be willing to harm his own son if it meant achieving his goals.
• In the main timeline, the New York special has Hawk Moth breakdance over the Horizon repeatedly. First, he had Nathalie use a Sentimonster to wreck Paris in an attempt to distract Ladybug, causing irreperable damage because Marinette didn't stop it before it disappeared. Then, he has Tech Pirate use the Eagle Miraculous to relieve the New York superheroes of their fears and inhibitions, allowing them to cause all sorts of destruction, which included Majestia attempting to move the moon. Finally, he has Victory prepare to launch nukes if Ladybug and Cat Noir didn't show up.

So for the first one, does it count as crossing if it happens in an alternate timeline that gets prevented? I would definitely agree it counts otherwise, but at the end of the day, it didn't technically happen. And for the second one, someone added this recently, but my mains issue is is that the show isn't over yet, and I feel like it's too premature to add something like this, but maybe that's for deciding after this trope is finished at TRS.

Is this written okay?

YMMV.Red Sadie:

• Moral Event Horizon: Bradshaw crosses it when he easily and causally allows Seraphinite to take Steven, Connie, and King, the former being two children and the latter being someone Seraphinite was perfectly willing to leave behind, in the "protection of humanity" - something he actually gets called out on, as not only is he actually endangering some of said humanity, but is doing so without even taking the feelings of the kidnappees or their friends and family into consideration. He crosses it even further - in the same chapter, no less - when he shoots Barb after she tries to go after Sadie, saying he doesn't want her to ruin his "negotiation" with Seraphinite.

Robot Chicken has these MEH and a lot of them don't really count considering that the show has a lot of Black Comedy

• Jon Arbuckle refusing to pay for Garfield's life-or-death operation.
• The Great Pumpkin's brutal murder of Linus.
• The Care Bears massacring the Care Bear Cousins.
• The Mad Scientist forcing the Robot Chicken to watch the show.
• Barney Rubble killing Dino and all the living appliances who were witnesses to his Accidental Murder of Fred. Except for the bidet. That was probably a mercy killing.

Every episode is similar to Family Guy where the episode just hits the Reset Button as if nothing happend such as Barney killing the pets, yet still appears in later episodes. I think most of these MEH should be cut because of what I said before, these are skits, these don't affect how future episodes perceive them

I'm wondering if I should just cut these

There is literally no continuity to Robot Chicken except with maybe The robot chicken himself and the Nerd. I say you should cut it.

Yeah, agree to the Robot Chicken cut due to the mentioned lack of continuity and general dark comedy of the show.

If anyone here is familiar with Impractical Jokers, they apparently have a MEH, despite the show featuring real people doing scripted pranks (I don't watch Impratical Jokers so I can't comment if they should be cut or not)

• Moral Event Horizon: Q, Sal, and Joe cross this to some in "Human Pinata" when they gave Murr the pinata punishment, despite the fact that both Murr and Joe lost, and had Joe's brother-in-law bat the crap out of him.
  • To other fans, Joe and Sal cross it when they force Murr to skydive for a punishment, despite the fact that he's so terrified of heights he was actually crying. Q gets a pass (and redeems himself for the Human Pinata) because he was the one who tried to talk Joe and Sal out of doing the skydive and giving Murr a different punishment instead after seeing how upset Murr was.
  • To some others, Joe almost crossed it for good in the episode "Doomed", where he tricked Murr into thinking that Joe was burning up his favorite blanket that his grandmother made in a ritualistic fire while he had to watch, twice.

Let's not apply MEH to real people.