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I think if the characters have forgiven him and he has not done such a thing again, he should probably be removed. Considering how I don't watch the show, it's best for a discussion to be created before doing so.
I still can't agree with that, because again, bad writing exists and authors doing their best (or worst) to Ass Pull a redemption exists.
My vote's just to set a base Heinous Standard for the trope.
If Moral Event Horizon is on the YMMV index, then it should be based on interpretations of events within the work. This means we can apply objective criteria even if the final determination is subjective. That is: if a character is forgiven or redeemed within the work, MEH should not be applied. Bad Writing is irrelevant.
If MEH were instead on the Audience Reactions index, then it would be entirely based on opinion and the actual content of the work would be irrelevant. But it's not.
edited 6th Jul '17 11:15:22 AM by Fighteer
Exactly what I was going to say. If, within the work, the character is forgiven by other characters, that overrides any personal opinion that the audience may have that what he did was unforgivable. Clearly, it wasn't
edited 6th Jul '17 11:57:03 AM by Madrugada
I would suggest the following standards:
But if he is forgiven by some, but not by others it can still apply, right?
edited 6th Jul '17 12:58:31 PM by Forenperser
It depends. I can personally think of at least one example where forgiveness is not equated with redemption. That is: the protagonists come to understand why the villain committed his most heinous acts and forgive him, but they still destroy him because he is beyond saving. note Specifically, Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, with the Storm King.
A Moral Event Horizon is the singular act that places a character beyond redemption. So the simple act of being forgiven is not enough by itself; the character must experience redemption, or at least be redeemed from the perspective of the other characters.
An MEH can also be explicitly called out within the story. Signs of this are use of the You Monster! or This Is Unforgivable! tropes, a Face–Heel Turn that leads to the character's death without redemption, and so on.
Complete Monster is a related trope; one presumes that such a character crossed the MEH at some point, but it's not necessary. One can have an MEH without becoming a CM, and one can be a CM from the very first depiction without ever getting a singular MEH.
edited 7th Jul '17 6:16:41 AM by Fighteer
I'd note here that if an MEH is meant to have happened in-story at least, the story usually starts treating the character differently afterwards.
The MEH for T'Uerell the main villain of the game Star Trek Legacy is a zero context entry.
I would say T'Uerell crossed the MEH when she blew up a space station and killed thousands of people, for no reason. She had several other crimes after that, but that is the action that let the player know how evil T'Uerell was.
I figured we should go through some of the sub-pages, so here's all the entries from The Simpsons.
IMO, the only entries here that are worth keeping are the ones for Cecil, Cargill, and the winemakers. Maybe keep the ones for Bob and Burns, but the rest can be cut as they are either not heinous enough, played for dark laughs, or the characters are still seen a favorable light after committing the deed. I appreciate more input.
With Simpsons, I kinda wonder about the lack of continuity they seem to like, although I've not seen it for a very long time.
The characters who don't show up anymore and crossed the line in their last appearance, they could maybe qualify.
The characters who do show up later on I'm much more doubtful about (and the main characters are not examples). How's Burns treated afterwards? Is he always treated as completely irredeemable?
Burns has plenty of moments afterwards where he has redeeming moments or is played completely for laughs. Trying to kill Bart was definitely was his most despicable deed in the show, but it doesn't mark a change on how he's depicted that the trope requires. He can probably be cut.
Simpsons has one big issue with any characters successfully crossing the MEH: The whole show operates under a constant state of Negative Continuity. It's very very rare that what happened in a previous episode sticks in the future. So no matter how horrible a character is in one episode, everything is back to normal in the next. They're "redeemed" or "forgiven" by the very nature of the show.
edited 9th Jul '17 9:48:39 AM by Madrugada
Yep. In the rare event that something does stick in continuity, it might be able to be considered an MEH, but otherwise what Madrugada said is correct.
So on Cross Ange there were some MEH moments that were a bit bad to say the least so I've cut them but here they are.
Examples Are Not Arguable and she turns to good in a couple of episodes later. She's nothing more than an Anti-Hero.
Jill was under brainwashing by Embryo and the Mana users were manipulated by Julio.
Chris and Rosalie were manipulated by Embryo.
Sideshow Bob is pretty consistently portrayed as irredeemably evil though (and if he's trying to look redeemed it's a ruse to get Bart to drop his guard).
edited 10th Jul '17 11:14:56 AM by PhiSat
Yeah, but is there a particular event or episode where Sideshow Bob specifically crossed over into irredeemability? That is: was he not an awful person at some point?
edited 10th Jul '17 1:46:02 PM by Fighteer
If there was a moment I'd say probably the episode (don't know episode names, sorry) where he pretends to have been redeemed and then at the end reveals he was just trying to get into Bart's good graces so he could kill him. It's not easy to come back from a moment like that.
That being said, I'm pretty indifferent as to whether he qualifies for the trope.
From YMMV.The Amazing World Of Gumball:
Ignoring the Example Indentation issues, the bolded section invalidates the entire entry. The show also explicitly treats Rob as a redeemable Tragic Villain, and he even reconciles with Gumball and stops antagonizing him (at least until Gumball purposefully antagonizes him back).
edited 11th Jul '17 10:58:57 AM by Karxrida
I cut most of The Simpsons examples and left a link to the clean-up thread in the edit reason. That should hopefully help clear things up.
The John Simm version of The Master has two Moral Event Horizons listed on the Live Action TV section:
Hmm. I haven't seen the episode referred to by the second example, but I have to say that The Master is another one of those characters who's been irredeemably evil in just about every appearance (at least in New Who; I can't speak for the original series). There's no one specific point where he crosses the line from "morally ambiguous" to You Monster!. There are places where he seems to be crossing back — that is, when The Doctor almost manages to break through his madness and get him to attempt a Heel–Face Turn, but he uniformly ends up backsliding, and that's not even bringing The Mistress ("Missy") into the equation, who's a female regeneration and (from the example) seems to want to switch sides.
Summary: he's too zig-zagged in his morality for any one moment to precisely denote when he crossed over into irredeemability.
edited 13th Jul '17 11:20:55 AM by Fighteer
A character can only cross the MEH once right? So I have seen some cases where people list every evil act a character commits as a MEH.
How should we deal with this? Should we delete the examples and open a discussion thread on the ymmv page or should we direct the editors to come to this thread?
Yeah that's right. I saw an Example of saying that Embryo crossed the MEH in every single action after Episode 19 and 20 for Cross Ange. Cut some of it out so it was only his action in that one particular episode. It's literally only 1 moment. If they continue doing evil actions after that moment it'll read more like an entry for Complete Monster.
For Cinderella, I've seen many acts deemed as a MEH about Lady Tremaine, a prominent villain. Should I nuke them?
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