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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8176: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:47:36 AM

He only does "close enough" for like three moves. And the normals are absolutely important for a character's identity, they need to be somewhat flashy and interesting because they make up half the moveset. Special moves and Supers are not all that matters. And also, Roshi only has one special move from the Tournament of Power and one Super from Resurrection F. Everything else is from Dragon Ball.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8177: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:48:34 AM

I didn't say they weren't important. What I actually said was that aesthetics and reference is less important when designing normals than it is for designing specials, whereas normals are more stringently filled in with mechanical purposes in mind.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 29th 2023 at 10:51:07 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8178: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:51:31 AM

It's always better to use interesting fight choreography from the series over inserting generic punches and kicks. When I make a moveset, I keep track of every move that character uses, and when I encounter repeats I either delete them or make them into an L/M/H special move. Even when it comes to normals, I will prioritize cool and unique moves over generic and boring strikes.

And the difference doesn't need to be that extreme. A straight punch forward is boring, but a straight punch forward with a vertical hand is interesting. A straight punch forward while stepping in, or with the other hand in a unique position, or with the hand higher or lower than the shoulder, those are all more interesting than just a straight punch.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 29th 2023 at 11:54:52 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8179: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:54:42 AM

Again, join the club.

Regarding filling in normals. Usually developers they won't go into that reference first. Typically, they're pick a thing they want the normal to do first, and then go hunting for something in the series history that more or less fits that necessity.

Hence why some moves don't always line up, or how you see a thing where some moves are very accurate while others kinda sorta use a reference as a baseline but aren't interested in being exact.

And the difference doesn't need to be that extreme

You're the one reading "referneces aren't as important for designing normals as they are for special moves" as "they never use references for normals" for some reason. If it looks extreme, it's because I think you're jumping to the bit too much.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 29th 2023 at 10:56:18 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8180: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:56:33 AM

Well, if the normal is too unique and interesting, maybe it would make more sense to be a command normal or a special move. Obviously normals are the most basic moves by default. They just don't need to be absolutely basic, and I think FighterZ does a very good job of making the normals interesting.

And I'm not reading that at all. I wasn't referring to you with "extreme". I was just saying the gap between a boring normal and an interesting normal can be thin.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 29th 2023 at 11:57:59 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8181: Jan 29th 2023 at 10:57:18 AM

Again, I never said normals couldn't be interesting either.

What I said was that when looking at the design of the character, it's presumptuous to focus on normals regardless of context as the bulk of what the developers meant the character to present as, to the exclusion of the rest of the moveset, the character design, and how those references are executed in general.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 29th 2023 at 10:59:36 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8182: Jan 29th 2023 at 11:00:40 AM

I'm not claiming you are saying that. Is this an argument? Are we getting heated? Because that's not how I interpreted it, I just thought we were having a casual conversation about design philosophies. If it feels like my posts were heated or aggressive, I apologize, that's not how I meant them.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8183: Jan 29th 2023 at 11:01:35 AM

I don't think we're getting heated, but I do think you're reading a different conversation from what I'm saying than the conversation I'm reading from what you're saying.

We're both responding to things the other isn't trying to say, I think.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 29th 2023 at 11:02:30 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8184: Jan 29th 2023 at 11:03:00 AM

Yeah, I think we both are, because this:

What I said was that when looking at the design of the character, it's presumptuous to focus on normals regardless of context as the bulk of what the developers meant the character to present as, to the exclusion of the rest of the moveset, the character design, and how those references are executed in general.

Is not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that normals matter, too, not that they matter more than everything else. The way this conversation started, it sounded to me like you were saying normals didn't matter at all.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 29th 2023 at 12:03:21 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8185: Jan 29th 2023 at 11:08:55 AM

To be clear, I think normals account for 30% of a character's identity, special moves account for another 30%, and Supers account for another 30%, with intros and outros counting for the remaining 10%. Normals are less flashy than special moves, but they're also much more multitudinous, and Supers are even more flashy but there are even fewer of them.

MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#8186: Jan 31st 2023 at 10:13:46 AM

Oh, man. Super Dragonball Z was full of original ideas. Every characters had their own branching skill trees, composed of a ton of crazy variations and "what if" moves. Some characters were fairly boring standard, but for some characters the designers just let their imaginations run wild.

Wanna play Sci-Fi Ronin Trunks with a Megaman-style projectile spewing laser sword? Wanna place super-mech zoner Freeza with mines and giant lasers? Wanna play untouchable Barrier Warrior Cell?

It was so novel and different in comparison to every other Dragonball game at the time. I've always wondered if it shared developers with Street Fighter EX.

It really was, which I assume is what gave both the arcade release and the PS 2 version a lot of replayability. Plus the PS 2 version adding King Piccolo and a bunch of Buu saga stuff helped too. I do kinda admit it was so weird seeing Vegeta's Galick Gun as a stream of fireballs instead of a giant beam. BTW look up the Japanese version's opening video so you can get a really good remix of CHA LA

And like I said we have to have that ridiculous Mecha Freeza in Fighter Z. Or at least Xenoverse? ....not even Heroes? That thing has everything tho!

Turns out I think a few Capcom guys did actually work on the game. Specifically Noritaka Funamizu, the Darkstalkers guy. Hence why it feels more and more like Darkstalkers Ball or Power Stone.

Are explosions science?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8187: Jan 31st 2023 at 10:39:31 AM

Street Fighter EX was an Arika joint, and...

Oh. (looks it up). So was Super Dragonball Z. I never knew that.

Well, I guess that explains why the games feel so similar (they have the same director), and why we never got a follow up for it. Arika got out of the fighting game business for quite a while until very recently.

MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#8188: Jan 31st 2023 at 11:30:42 AM

Shame really, they made some surprisingly good stuff that went under the radar.

Are explosions science?
dhochoy Since: Oct, 2016
#8189: Feb 5th 2023 at 2:36:45 AM

What about Mr. Satan for Fighter Z 2?

I know the producer said no joke characters, but Mr. Satan doesn't have to be one. He's very strong for a regular human so he can just a really comedic character.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mrsatan_bg_table.png

I imagine him playing like Chris Redfield- a character who uses weapons and gadgetry to make up for his/her lack of power.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8190: Mar 13th 2023 at 12:28:57 PM

Surprised I've not seen a movelist for Cell MAX.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8191: Mar 13th 2023 at 12:58:05 PM

He's definitely got more than enough material for a moveset. I just haven't made one because I'd want to re-watch Super Hero and make movesets for the Gammas and Yellow/Orange Piccolo at the same time.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8192: Mar 13th 2023 at 3:55:50 PM

Fighter Z isn't the best game to fit a giant character into. Too much mobility.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#8193: Mar 13th 2023 at 4:14:42 PM

Best they can do is Broly and man that super armor tho.

Unless he was nerfed and i haven't checked in a while

Uni cat
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#8194: Mar 13th 2023 at 4:25:27 PM

Broly's still pretty top tier last I checked. Not one of THE problem characters (that would be the 21s and the Fusions), but still great.

MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a
#8195: Mar 13th 2023 at 4:28:58 PM

Still can't get over that. As Moldy Bagel said, THE-BEST-ZONER-IN-THE-GAME-IS-A-FUCKING-GRAPPLER (shot of z broly going ">:D")

Also I hope they buff Cooler. Last I checked he was already good, now we just need to make him beansariffic.

Are explosions science?
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#8196: Mar 13th 2023 at 4:31:41 PM

Broly is such a weirdo cause Grapplers have to commit to being close quarters. But this is dragon ball, everyone can shoot beams so he has some of the best zoning tools.

And if you get close? SUPER ARMOR BITCH! Santa Broly will deliver you a swift beatdown.

Edited by fasoman1996 on Mar 13th 2023 at 8:32:02 AM

Uni cat
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8198: Mar 13th 2023 at 5:06:35 PM

It now erases the opponent's save file if it connects.

If it whiffs, it merely crashes the game.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#8199: May 6th 2023 at 7:08:57 AM

It has now been 273 days since Rollback Netcode was first announced.

Honestly, they should have just not announced it so early if it was going to take this long to implement. We know there's going to be a Rollback beta test, but even that was announced 62 days ago with no date or news since.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#8200: May 18th 2023 at 12:34:23 PM

Just got a mysterious update for Dragonball Fighterz on PC, so the rollback beta is probably imminent.


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