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The Witcher - A Netflix Series

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#526: Oct 30th 2022 at 2:08:51 PM

Pure speculation on my part but if Cavill is THAT much of a fan (which I don't doubt) then he'd surely have to be offered a lot of money OR have some other motive to give it up, even for Superman.

Either way I don't think the show will last long without him if there really is such antipathy/antagonism to the source behind the scenes.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#527: Oct 30th 2022 at 4:05:30 PM

The show has already shown a willing to delay its seasons so I imagine if it was simply filming for Superman roles they could've just waited. It's more likely that something else also contributed to it, such as insurmountable creative differences.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#528: Oct 31st 2022 at 4:51:15 AM

As of right now these are just rumors, and rumors in Hollywood are like mold: they grow on any surface that's left exposed. I'll judge season 3 on its own merits when it comes out, and season 4 likewise.

Speaking of, did Blood Origins come out yet?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#529: Oct 31st 2022 at 4:57:00 AM

Huh I wonder if thats why the animated movie changed the Witcher trials to be more sadistically cruel and evil when apparently in the novels they were more pragmatic and not so senselessly cruel that children died in droves

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Walkinshadows Since: Jun, 2012
#530: Oct 31st 2022 at 5:17:52 AM

Blood Origin will come out this Christmas.

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#531: Oct 31st 2022 at 8:07:03 AM

[up]X2: Kind of ironic considering Beau DeMayo was the lead writer of Nightmare of the Wolf.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#532: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:27:58 AM

Wow, I guess this show is more like Game of Thrones than we thought, right down to the writers leaving the books and turning the whole show into shit.

ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#533: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:36:35 AM

In a way this is even worse; they didn't even wait for the books to run out before running the series to the ground.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#534: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:41:49 AM

The writers seem to be aggressively against the books to be honest. They didn't make it past the first two short stories without utterly upending a lot of it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#535: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:26:34 PM

Well, like the former producer said, the writers apparently hated the books and games, which lends the question of why they were on the show to begin with.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#536: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:46:39 PM

OK, I think that quote needs some clarity and context... Quoting IGN's article on it, emphasis mine:

"I've been on show - namely Witcher - where some of the writers were not or actively disliked the books and games (even actively mocking the source material)," De Mayo explained. "It's a recipe for disaster and bad morale. Fandom as a litmus test checks egos, and makes all the long nights worth it. You have to respect the work before you're allowed to add to its legacy."

De Mayo served as a co-producer on two episodes of The Witcher's first season and penned another story in the eight-episode block before returning as a writer on the second episode of Season 2. He didn't mention any names and with several changes on the writing team each season, it's unclear who he is taking aim at and whether those people remain on board.

Showrunner Lauren Schmidt Hissrich originally underscored the importance of the books and the original short stories when crafting The Witcher for Netflix. "We're all big fans of the books," she said. "We're all big fans of the video games as well, but this is solely based on the books and that's really where we drew our inspiration from – starting with the short stories."

The context of the quote is how he's approaching his X-Men cartoon reboot, and staffing the writers room with fans. That's his prerogative, but isn't a recommendation for the industry as a whole, and doesn't guarantee a quality product. Tony Gilroy (Andor) has spoken about how he doesn't really care about Star Wars and has to rein in everyone else's nostalgia, but he's still got the vision and experience with which to deliver a good show.

Things to remember when throwing this quote around:

  1. An individual writer doesn't have that much control over a show. The producers, other writers, directors, and most importantly showrunner are there too.
  2. Writers have to feed themselves and sometimes in the entertainment industry a job is a job.
  3. Liking the material =/= quality product, disliking the material =/= bad product

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 31st 2022 at 2:53:11 PM

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#537: Oct 31st 2022 at 3:39:05 PM

It's definitely a curiosity that Cavill is leaving, as by all accounts he took a pay cut to be in the show because he was a fan of the material. To not stick with it implies some sort of dissatisfaction, unless he was given an ultimatum and chose Superman.

^ I very much agree. We have Running the Asylum for when writers are too obsessed with remixing the content that came before that it falls apart as its own thing. These productions are such a large investment that there are any number of things that can sabotage it without any malicious or egotistical intent behind it. Writing, production, direction and acting all have to understand what each other are doing. Something can sound great in the writers room but the director chooses something else on the day of filming that cuts it off at the knees. Something I was told repeatedly in school was that you can't sit next to the audience and explain what you were trying to do.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#538: Oct 31st 2022 at 3:40:39 PM

Speaking as a huge fan of the books, I think the writing notes are weirdly obsessed with making everything more grimdark than the books and the books are already pretty fucking grimdark.

They also are perhaps the first time in Hollywood history where they DON'T want to portray the extremist revolutionaries as unjustified in their revenge and going "too far." Except this is absolutely how the elves are portrayed in the books because Sapkowski knows how ethic warfare is NOT romantic.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 31st 2022 at 3:41:57 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#539: Oct 31st 2022 at 3:42:17 PM

Faithfulness to the source material aside, I very much enjoyed both seasons of the show so far and found the acting, character development, and world building all more than adequate. With the animated film and the prequel series, it seems like Netflix is really committing to the IP and trying to make it their own.

I would be surprised and disappointed to find it ending in creative differences.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#540: Nov 1st 2022 at 12:12:27 PM

Yeah, writing in Hollywood is oft not about how much you like what you're working on.

Writing is freelance and you are a cog to be tossed on a production. And you have to find some way to like or be creative with the material you're working from. Sometimes that's love. Occasionally that's hatred and criticism. Either can create a good product. But I also sympathize that differences created might come from a good place and make sense but just... aren't right for a work.

And you REALLY can't just adapt something neutrally. Like you *need* to understand it's function and how it works. Why it works. What's important and what isn't. Doesn't matter if it's an understanding of love or criticism. There is no neutral process to adaptation or you just get a boring work.

Sometimes genuine hatred or criticism can actually produce great works. Starship Troopers was *loathed* by the director who turned the entire work into a lambast parody of the book's original themes. Something that utterly destroys the original, but we kinda accept it because the themes of the book are just that terrible (though somehow there are people today who don't realize that the film is a parody?).

I guess one of my big questions out of this is *what* about the original do some of the writers not like? Like, I love Witcher 3 but I think there's a lot to criticize about the books and the games. I actually think Witcher 1 is a *really* bad adaptation of the series that makes some frankly baffling decisions. And don't get me started on the sex trading cards.

I personally love Cyberpunk as a TTRPG and a video game. Adore it. Known on discords and reddit as a "Lore Master" and apparently been cited in a You Tube video or two. I would love to adapt the IP to a movie in the future. But even I do have some genuine criticism for how the property handles some topics. I think it's a bit short-sighted in some of it's aspects of cyberware and doesn't examine the topics of disability and ableism that could stem from them and just kinda go "People chop off arms for latest tech. But if you replace too much YOU JUST TURN EVIL. YOU JUST DO. DON'T DO IT".

And it's probably the first thing I'd pointedly lambast if I were ever given adaptational control. I have an interesting neo-noir mystery to confront and criticize that attitude in the world.

But there are those who see those elements differently. For some, that might be a criticism too far and marks it for "No, don't watch it. They clearly hate the original". And since that kinda reaction can appear over literally *any* change up to and including "Hey, women also exist", how do you determine what criticism from a fan-dumb to even listen to?

I guess the point I'm getting at is that I don't think I know enough about what they like or don't like about the books/games to say if the criticism is valid or not. Even with the changes to the elven rebellions, if the elves are kinda always going to be seen as "racial minority facing prejudice", I can see where the writers might be like "Hey, the book has a point but... maybe the points the books are making is a bit tone deaf if we were to make these comments with our show?".

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#541: Nov 1st 2022 at 12:19:38 PM

Any reason than they decided to have them in the show have those communities do actual horrfiting atrocities like you know a full on purge of every baby in the kingdom. Stuff that doesn't happen in either medium

The major crimes that Elven characters do in the books/games is you know Eredin and his wild hunt. A cabal of imperialist conquering assholes. Having stuff done by the actual abused communities is a choice in contrast....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#542: Nov 1st 2022 at 12:22:43 PM

I think it's a bit short-sighted in some of it's aspects of cyberware and doesn't examine the topics of disability and ableism that could stem from them and just kinda go "People chop off arms for latest tech. But if you replace too much YOU JUST TURN EVIL. YOU JUST DO. DON'T DO IT".

This is a bit of a Dead Unicorn Trope, though. Mike Pondsmith removed cyberpsychosis from V3 decades and it doesn't exist in the game world as a real thing.

The show made it exist again and now everyone is like, "Why doesn't the game have cyberpsychosis?"

Which is the thing with The Witcher that you have to understand the property to properly "fix" it.

The major crimes that Elven characters do in the books/games is you know Eredin and his wild hunt. A cabal of imperialist conquering assholes. Having stuff done by the actual abused communities is a choice in contrast....

The elves being goodies is on the games to an extent. Because Sapkowksi has stated that the Scoiatael aren't actually meant to represent Jews or other oppressed minorities fighting back. They're meant to comment on the fact that in Eastern Europe, there's lengthy history of racial mass murder and Cycle of Revenge.

Like Tolkien, dwarves are the Jewish analogs and get a huge amount of shit from humans for no reason but elves have a history of being oppressive mass murderers themselves and conduting terror campaigns against innocent humans.

Which...being a man of his age and place, it's not like Sapkowski didn't know what he was talking about.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 1st 2022 at 12:27:20 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#543: Nov 1st 2022 at 1:33:39 PM

Mike Pondsmith removed cyberpsychosis from V3 decades and it doesn't exist in the game world as a real thing.

Not to derail too hard and I apologize, but he's gone back and forth on it. His comments post-Edgerunners is that Cyberpsychosis *is* a thing (because it's a major plot point in Edgerunners).

Meanwhile 2077 ultimately comes to the conclusion that Cyberpsychosis *isn't* real. Or, not in the way everyone talks about it anyway. Cyberware can be improperly installed and cause problems like a cell phone can glitch, but there's nothing *inherent* to cyberware that will make someone insane. And, on a narrative level, I just generally hate any world building that goes "Ok, character is bad/crazy now. They just are. Gotta put them down". It removes character, agency, and motivation from the situation. And I think there's a lot of commentary nuance to "Cyberpsychosis is just what we label everything we don't want to talk and deal with".

So, while I love Cyberpunk, if I were ever working on a project for it... I, with the utmost respect, disagree with that aspect of Pondsmith's world. I don't like the conclusion it makes and I wouldn't want to work on a story with that aspect. So, in a writers room... would I be labeled as "Hating the source material" if I disagree with an aspect of the world? Would I be a bad writer if I want to change/update a particular aspect of it? Even if it's clearly against the intentions of Word of God?

Which is what I kinda feel about Witcher's changes. Until I know what exactly they supposedly hate/criticize about the original works and what is motivating the changes they've made, I don't know how much I can criticize? Like, Yennifer and her relationship to Ciri; are the changes made there because "I think Yenn is a bitch in the books and I wanna soften her" or "Hey, this character has a lot of complexity that we don't have the runtime to totally sell this much more hardedged character, so let's soften her a bit to ease the medium?"

Because I think the show on it's own is still good. And clearly does show a lot of love and care and pride in their work. I think how they revealed Emhyr was bloody brilliant in the show. All of the elements came together wonderfully in a way that would be really easy to either turn into a non-moment or drag out because everyone knows where it's going. In this way, the scenes still have value because now all of their plotting becomes Dramatic Irony for the audience rather than wasting our time.

Sorry, small comment about Liam Hemsworth before I forget; people are criticizing the casting but I'm willing to give him a shot. I've yet to see him in many leading man roles or roles that actually give him material to stretch his legs with so I'm willing to see what he does with it. I don't see any reason to hate him but I have no reason to cry perfect casting either.

Edited by InkDagger on Nov 1st 2022 at 1:34:14 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#544: Nov 1st 2022 at 3:29:50 PM

I stand corrected and looked up what Mike said most recently. Thanks for your insight and I understand definitely.

Here's what Mike Pondsmith said in 2022.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/xn07ze/mike_pondsmith_explains_cyberpsychosis_and_why_v/

First of all, Cyberpsychosis is a disorder that in part depends on the subject's overall internal susceptibility. Just like every person who drinks a lot at parties doesn't end up an alcoholic in the gutter, not everyone who gets loaded up on cyberware is going to automatically go cyberpsycho. You have to have an inherent susceptibility, which (in the TRPG) is represented by the player's Humanity Stat. Humanity is not just a measure of one aspect of personality, but an overall measure of several elements including the subject's ability to emphasize and relate with others, their ability to absorb and rebound from mental and physical stressors, their ability to show compassion and flexibility to others, and whether they are able to balance their worldview through other methods.

So, in some ways, I tend to treat cyberware as an addiction—heavy anabolic steroid use being my favorite model. Not everyone who juices ends up crazy mad with roid rage. But those who are more susceptible to the need to take more steroids are more likely to hit a point where they do flip into roid rage. (Take a look at this article from Livescience https://www.livescience.com/38354-what-is-roid-rage.html for a pretty good idea of how roid rage works—notice that it's got the same basic profile as cyberpsychosis).

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#545: Nov 1st 2022 at 3:31:02 PM

I'm really curious about how we got on this topic and even more curious about how we can get off it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#546: Nov 1st 2022 at 5:03:16 PM

Witchness.

We're discussing Witcherness!

I wonder if they're going to continue to adapt the books or will go off the rails completely without Cavill.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#547: Nov 2nd 2022 at 8:39:02 AM

Either way it'll likely end up like Game of Thrones, a promising fantasy show thrown into the garbage.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#548: Nov 2nd 2022 at 9:35:12 AM

But other than GOT, it didn't even start out particularly close to the Source Material.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#549: Nov 2nd 2022 at 9:53:28 AM

And thus another failed attempt by companies to gain their own Game of Thrones

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 2nd 2022 at 9:53:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#550: Nov 3rd 2022 at 2:21:29 AM

The only time another Game or thrones has worked is when it's literally another Game of thrones.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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