Unclear Description: Idol Singer

The description isn't unclear, it's just wrong. It's... outdated, I guess? In any case, the sort of thing it describes is not what modern idol anime are (and we are talking about this as a trope).

First of all, the whole "always female" thing - you might not have noticed (since fans outside of Japan tend to be incredibly dismissive of this sort of thing), but there's a huge male idol show trend recently. Marginal #4, Tsukiuta (which does not have a page), B Project, and many others, on top of the long-running Uta No Prince Sama. They sort of outnumber female idol series recently - actually, Idolm@ster is making an anime of it's "Side M" game soon. The stuff about "can't sing" "ruthlessly discarded" "broken birds"... that's just negative. Sure, that applies to many characters, but it's not a necessary aspect of idol stories. A lot of idol shows actually show the characters having a lot more creative control than they would in real life.

Male 2D idols are a big enough thing in Japan now that there are magazines just about them - not about bishounen anime in general, just about bishounen idol anime and games.

And if you think a 30-or-so-year-old man can't be an idol... check these two.

This needs re-writing. Would that be okay?

edited 24th Mar '17 9:52:51 AM by lavendermintrose

I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care.

Opening. You make a good point. I agree this is one of those tropes that is in need of an update. It would be good to make sure that the Analysis page goes into the older version of the trope, but I defiantly agree that it's at the very least expanded to include men as well.

The definition as it's written is much more about the 90's early 2000's version of the trope.

Though, I do think there is room for the version where they're there as eye candy but can't really sing. That is a trope, I'm just not sure it should be named Idol Singer. Maybe move that to something like Eye Candy Over Talent?

edited 24th Mar '17 12:14:19 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

A singer who's reallythere for Eye Candy rather than talent is maybe a Teenage Heartthrob?

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

They aren't always teenage. A lot of them are in their twenties/early thirties. Also Teenage Heartthrob has also been applied to actors a lot. Not that the idea of being just Tallentless Eye Candy doesn't apply to actors too.

I think that would be best as an In-Universe only trope though.

edited 24th Mar '17 12:29:36 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Ok, then, "Heartthrob without the "teenage". Although we don't seem to have that one either... (I'm not at all familiar with this type of performer.)

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Heartthrob's are often talented. Leonardo De Caprio was a heartthrob but he could certainly act. We need something for the transplanted trope that captures both the attractive bit and the lack of skill.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I know iCarly had an example of a hunky male intern with zero talent that they admitted was just there for eye-candy. Maybe something like Talentless But Atttractive?

Yeah, or the secretary in the Ghostbusters reboot. They admitted that they only hired him because he was hot.

Just For Looks?

edited 24th Mar '17 4:23:37 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

We've gotten rather off the topic of updating the Idol Singer page...

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

We have and I found Hired for Their Looks anyway so we're good there.

All right, the first things we need to do is take out the gender specific bits and the complaining.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

On the whole gender specific thing I am really thinking we should split the two, there are so many media stereotypes for each that I think they should be split. Unless they are a cross dresser in with the girl idols, aka a 'trap' or 'tomgirl', they follow way different stereotypes and target a completely different crowd.

Also 80s/90s/2000s idol portrayals and stereotypes are fully valid.

edited 24th Mar '17 10:08:39 PM by Memers

Valid, yes, but it sounds like the page needs to explain the evolution of the genre.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

So to help clarify the definition, here's some questions for those more knowledgeable about the topic and trope.The page isn't very clear especially since the laconic is missing.

• Is this a character trope, industry trope, or general trope?
• What is the core aspect of the idol that separates them from a standard celebrity? ie. An Idol Singer vs Katy Perry
• Are the secondary aspects (age, innocence, etc) required or optional?
• Is it region specific to Eastern media? Should it be?
• And obviously, as OP pointed out, it's not inherently gender specific, correct?

Also, I started Sandbox.Idol Singer for anyone who wants to start tweaking the description.

edited 24th Mar '17 8:41:39 PM by pokedude10

All of the above, the line between fictional idols and their real world counterparts became non-existent long ago, even in the 80s they were doing a form of it. An idol is a massive 'mixed media' property, even in say idols in Sci-Fi shows.

Like say Aikatsu the idols in s1 make up the STAR☆ANIS group and STAR☆ANIS is a real world idol group with the same people singing in the show.

Yes it gets strange and do not get me started on Hatsune Miku...

Well with Christmas Cake being the law, very very few actually are older than 25 as that is the 'retirement age'.

Also dating is a massive no no while being an idol as 'idols belong to everyone', its a massive 'dont tell' type thing so it can be done on the down low though.

A Jaded Idol can be around or over 25.

The stereotypes are very region specific to Japanese media, even a K-pop idol is quite different as they are allowed to be sexy and what we would consider flirty as well as date and a bunch of other things in RL and fiction.

Recently, like in the past year, there have been a rise in male idols however they follow completely different stereotypes as well which is why I would think they should be on a different page. Someone better familiar with the shows and games would probably be better to write that.

edited 24th Mar '17 9:36:06 PM by Memers

I have to chime in on K-pop and dating ban. While there is no public dating ban per se, and idols might reveal their relationships when well into their fame, there is quite often a lot of controversy when they do so. Even it's not explicitly said that "idols belong to the fans", fans already do treat the idols as if they do own them. So, even Korean idols do have a form of dating ban.

They are allowed to date behind the scenes. They are not allowed to reveal it, except in rare cases, which often involve the very top idols. The media that usually reveals it, Dispatch, gets permission form the idol's company first, so the reveals tend to be in very opportune times like before a new song promotion cycle, meaning it's meant to be just marketing noise. They are prepared for the death threats and harassment for their idols, and they do receive a lot afterwards, they just don't matter anymore because the idols involved are too big to fail at that point.

That something that happens in works and such? Everything I laid out is something that happens in works for idols.

Having a hidden tryst with an idol is a very common Hentai plot line in Japan though, not sure in Korea though.

edited 30th Mar '17 4:53:20 PM by Memers

I was answering as an industry trope, since obviously the purity contracts you see in Anime are based on real life contracts. J-pop idols really do have dating bans.

In your criterias, not that I know of.

There aren't really many works focused on K-pop idols, but those that are usually are more gritty and tend to show how idols look all friendly on stage, but not so much behind the scenes, they might even fight a lot. There are also cases of girls wanting to be idols and are on their way to fame, but due to fighting, their face gets scarred and their dreams are ruined. Things like this.

Otherwise, they are just background noise, or random references.

I don't know about K-Drama, I'm talking more about movies and documentaries. I've tried K-dramas, they all suck so I don't watch them.

Single proposition crowner, or leave this as is?

Single prop won't do justice, I believe.

Maybe a page action will suffice. The options don't have to be exclusive of each other.

Edit: I'll start it up, then shut off clock.

edited 17th Jun '17 9:23:50 PM by Berrenta

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

I would split this into 'Japanese Idol Girl' which would go into detail on their stereotypes in the portrayal of those characters over the years, which have evolved a lot. And the Mixed Media Projects that often blur the line between fictional works and live stage performance, such Aikatsu Hatsune Miku and DoCo.

Also talk about the split between the genders at least with J Pop Idol, go into the differences like girls will speak in a higher than their natural voice because it is seen as cuter but it doesn't tend to reflect in their singing unless it is a character, relationship restrictions such as they cant date or generally do anything in public and such.

As well as explain the difference between an J Pop Idol and a Gravure Idol, the latter is a lewder version of a western swimsuit Idol. They can overlap like Super Sonico is both so is Rise in Persona 4.

The others would be K Pop Idol, primarily non fiction if our discussion here is anything to go by. Net Idol and maybe generic idol, not sure if there is enough for those two.

A Jaded Two Faced Idol would be something for YKTTW.

Teenage Heartthrob as well?

edited 18th Jun '17 12:56:53 PM by Memers

Seems more reasonable. Will add to crowner and adjust the crowner description.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Bump for more votes. Split option needs just a few more votes cast on it before we can call.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

It's not clear to me what the difference between K Pop Idol and J Pop Idol is.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Aside from the language, racism, and racist laws. It's solidly a Sexy Vs Cute thing.

Kpop Idols are flirty and sexy and play that up for the camera and outfits, they and their music has far more western influence to it too. A Kpop Idol will spend 7-10 years training for their debut and will have actual skill. It's a serious cutthroat business with lots of drama. Rather rare in Korean fiction.

J Pop Idols are cute, they talk in a voice 3 octaves higher than their natural voice, they will wear frilly outfits akin to Frills of Justice. Tend to basically be plucked right off the street with little training, actual skill not required. They are pretty much made to be pandering to the opposite gender, who stereotypically are smelly otaku in media even though the bulk of their fans are normal people around their own age.

Very common in Japanese fiction, any fictional idol that has a song in an anime will have a real world marketing team behind them with at least a single and a music video behind them.