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clockworkboy Since: Jun, 2013
#176: Mar 20th 2017 at 3:01:08 PM

Actually I think Danny's situation is similar to Korra's as well. Both of them trained extensively for over a decade for the responsibility/role they've been given and both decided to leave their sheltered training environment to go out and see the world and get some experience. Both Danny and Korra have the abilities associated with their titles but have/did not actually become the title until much later. Danny still needs to master the Iron Fist, just like Korra and Aang had to master the other elements and their spiritual selves to become fully realized. There are lots of interesting parallels between this show and the avatar series.

Tis the great art of life to manage well The restless mind
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177: Mar 20th 2017 at 3:02:39 PM

[up]x8 As someone who took a class on Film Noir a couple years ago, I'd argue that it does have a Film Noir feel, and that it wouldn't have one if everything wasn't fucked up.

edited 20th Mar '17 3:03:38 PM by kkhohoho

iamthecircle Pretentious Scholar of English from The Armpit of the Bible Belt Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Pretentious Scholar of English
#178: Mar 20th 2017 at 3:15:14 PM

Yeah, Danny became the Iron Fist because he defeat the dragon. But wasn't he chosen as to be a candidate by his mentor to do the challenge in the first place? That's part of the reason why Davos is jealous, because his father seems to be the Head monk or whatever that makes that choice.

Also, I'm really glad I'm not the only one who gets jealous boyfriend vibes from Davos. Part of it is that he's like a sibling that is jealous of the favor of his sibling has, but also he acts so personally betrayed by Danny's leaving K'un L'un and hates Colleen so much.

edited 20th Mar '17 3:15:26 PM by iamthecircle

Chariot King of Anime Since: Jul, 2014
King of Anime
#179: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:06:14 PM

Just finished. I think Jessica Jones was the better of the two Netflix series I finished but I enjoyed this. While I feel an Asian /Asian American Danny would have been a better fit I found the one we got charming and likable despite that. The fights and acting could have been better but the story was enough for me to forgive that. I definitely didn't see the ending coming and now I'm looking forward to seeing how it ties into The Defenders.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#180: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:08:17 PM

Watching a little more.

I loved the crime boss' "hoooooly shit!" face when Danny mentioned the Hand.

fusilcontrafusil Since: Jun, 2013
#181: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:27:33 PM

Coming at this as an Asian whose country was colonized by white people for centuries, I'm kind of amused by white Americans and Asian-Americans taking umbrage at the concept. Take it from someone whose culture's been "under the yoke":

It is great that a white guy embraces another culture. It is great that he speaks better Chinese than a Chinese (well, half Chinese half Japanese) woman. They've been making others embrace theirs for centuries, so why not reverse it? And it's not done out of a sense of superiority like colonization was. The monks saved his life and taught him what they knew.

Also, "cultural appropriation" can't be a bad thing if multiculturalism is to flourish. To say it's bad is "my-culturalism" which is isolationist at the core. As in, there's yours and there's mine and never the twain shall meet. Share the love.

edited 20th Mar '17 6:35:30 PM by fusilcontrafusil

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#182: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:46:38 PM

Cultural appropriation in America is generally tied to the trivialization of the importance of non-white people in American media and the diminishing of those peoples' role in defining their cultural identity within the country - which can and has historically had really shitty effects on those people in American history. Ultimately the big fear is that it will perpetuate the control of people's stories being in the hands of those who do not and will never have interest in supporting the communities they come from.

People can and do often jump the gun in regards to it this day and age, with it's tumblr bandwagons and knee-jerk politics, but that doesn't make it solely a "using a culture that isn't your own in terrible" thing, nor does it make it any less of an important thing to keep pointing out.

edited 20th Mar '17 6:49:44 PM by KnownUnknown

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#183: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:49:21 PM

It's not but I feel like it's used in that sense by young and ignorant Tumblrites.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#184: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:50:12 PM

And? Am I an ignorant tumblr user? Is my point about why it's important to keep in mind any less true because some other guy on some website people over-aggrandize said something stupid?

I don't mean to sound harsh, but seriously. Who cares (or more accurately, "why is that relevant?")? Cherry picking an ignorant argument to diminish a valid concern is always going to be a weak argument, albeit one that has always nevertheless gotten traction in this country.

edited 20th Mar '17 6:53:37 PM by KnownUnknown

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#185: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:52:58 PM

I'm not talking about anyone in this thread. I'm just saying some people seem to think cultural appropriation is using anything from another culture, period.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#186: Mar 20th 2017 at 6:54:14 PM

I don't actually think you're talking about me personally. I'm making a point.

The fact that tumblerites screw up the term is irrelevant. I'm not a tumblerite, nor am I ignorant (at least, not in this sense), yet the things I'm saying about why cultural appropriation is a real, valid concern to the people it affects are still true. That being the case, what someone else says about it that's false is less than meaningful.

"Some people" are wrong. And one day, they may be corrected. Or maybe they won't. But that's not relevant to the topic as a whole. Pretending that it is is foolish. And it does kind of bug me that it still happens all the time.

It's the same issue that made "playing the race card" such an ever-present insult over the years, and it's the same thing that people tried to do to the topic of privilege, though I'm glad that most people I've encountered who actually are behind dealing with the problem are by and large ignoring that sort of thing.

Again, forgive me for seeming harsh, but seriously: going from "people are concerned about their identity and voice being suppressed and trivialized in the media" to "it's used by ignorant tumblr users" feels like a non-sequitur.

edited 20th Mar '17 7:18:15 PM by KnownUnknown

iamthecircle Pretentious Scholar of English from The Armpit of the Bible Belt Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Pretentious Scholar of English
#187: Mar 20th 2017 at 7:33:25 PM

@fusilcontrafusil That's very nice to hear, since I think the show is trying to tell a story about multiculturalism and how people connect through shared culture. Colleen and Danny's romance is made up of how they bond over shared experiences like their martial arts training, language, and love of donkey (which sounds good to me). They are very similar people with ultimately a very singular background. All their big problems and misunderstandings stem from where they disconnect culturally like Danny's idea of take out, out right buying her dojo as he has the privilege to do so, and where he assumes she speaks better Chinese than she does.This comes to a head when Colleen is revealed to be part of the Hand. Despite their raising being so similar, they are in two cultures in opposition, and both think the other is brainwashed in a similar way. However, the audience is naturally skeptical of a multicultural white man, because of a long history of white colonialists stealing a culture as their own, and somehow making it better in the narrative. I think this may have been helped if Danny had some sort of foil whose an Asian-American of some sort who is totally Western in view and taste.

edited 20th Mar '17 7:34:14 PM by iamthecircle

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#188: Mar 20th 2017 at 11:00:58 PM

I actually do think this series does a good job counteracting it narratively by emphasizing how strange and vague he is in the face of the rest of the world including where he originally came from, and making it clear that while Danny may be the Chosen One he is fundamentally incapable of doing any of this alone.

Watching on - I'm at the point where Colleen just got poisoned. Finn Jones' martials arts gets rather silly at times, but I don't mind it. Hollywood Martial Arts and all. Also, I like how the Hand has individual, interesting members rather than being a mob of faceless ninja goons. Goes far towards making them more interesting collectively.

Also, the Meachums are some of the most nuanced Corrupt Corporate Executive antagonists/protagonists I've seen. I'm not a great fan of the character type due to one one-note those kinds of characters tend to be, so I'm glad to see Marvel avert type by making ones that aren't so by numbers. Besides Lex Luthor, they might be favorite takes on the type.

edited 20th Mar '17 11:06:47 PM by KnownUnknown

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#189: Mar 20th 2017 at 11:02:28 PM

I'm curious: is there a scene where Danny finds out everything that's happened in the MCU while he's been away?

"So aliens invaded New York? And a Norse god helped fight them off? Along with a ... what the hell's a Hulk?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#190: Mar 20th 2017 at 11:06:14 PM

Nah. Someone mentions it to him in the second episode, but he doesn't react one way or another.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#191: Mar 20th 2017 at 11:22:36 PM

All their big problems and misunderstandings stem from where they disconnect culturally like Danny's idea of take out, out right buying her dojo as he has the privilege to do so, and where he assumes she speaks better Chinese than she does.

Those were hardly big problems. Her reaction to the take out was pretty much "well, whatever, he doesn't know what he's doing, I'll just take the damn food." Her reaction to the Chinese was just "Sorry I'm not as fluent as you think, stick with English or Japanese." Even her reaction to buying the dojo was just an eye-roll and a sigh.

[up] He does mention that he had to pass through Morocco and a few other countries. Seems he spent most of the trip on foot or on a boat. More than enough time to find out about the biggest event in the past fifteen years.

Though I do agree it was a missed opportunity. I think it would have been hilarious if someone was like "Well the weirdest part was probably the part where the Norse God of Thunder helped fight off an alien invasion—" and Danny had just been like "Asgardians have returned to Earth? That's great! Who were they fighting? Frost Giants? They've attacked Earth in the past."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#192: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:00:43 AM

RE: The chemical plant: That bothered me. Closing down a plant that is in full compliance with EPA regs is extremely likely to kill lots of people on net.. because we live in a world where chemistry is fodunational to everything. Shut one plant, and someone else will open one to meet that demand.. In india. Or africa. or just generally somewhere where environmental regulations are next to non-existing. And then that location has a real problem instead of the almost certainly fictional problem you just "got rid of". The plant got sued because it was close, visible and had deep pockets. There likely *is* some pollutant causing the cancer cluster.. but they didn't have any evidence it was the plant, and such evidence is usually not that difficult to come by - irresponsibly run chemistry is easy to measure.

edited 21st Mar '17 12:04:39 AM by Izeinsummer

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#193: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:45:36 AM

[up] And I actually got the impression that the audience was supposed to have exactly that thought. There was a reason they showed that Joy actually does care about those people, and it was not a case of a company hiding a problem it knew existed in order to save a little bit of money.

About the cultural appropriation problem: I agree that nowadays the word is used way too freely, and I agree that the way the show addressed cultural conflicts was interesting. Thus said, Danny is an odd one out in both cultures. In American culture, he was pretty much isolated from "normal" people, a rich kid who didn't even visit a private school but was taught down the hall. And then he ends up in Kunlun which not only is an isolated society, but he then became a monk...a mistreated monk, because I actually think that Colleen is at least partly right about Kunlun just being another cult. Which is interesting in itself, most American Media tends to idealize those concepts of discipline and hard training.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#194: Mar 21st 2017 at 10:37:45 AM

I did really dig the fact that they didn't portray the conflict as black and white — that the Hand was legitimately helping kids, even if their other methods were evil, and K'un L'un was pretty abusive towards Danny, even if they oppose evil.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#195: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:53:46 AM

I wish we had gotten more looks at K'un L'un and how it works. Like, do the monks normally subject people they rescue to hardcore training, even if they're children? Or would they have been happy to give him a simple life in the village, but Danny insisted on training to become the Iron Fist?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
clockworkboy Since: Jun, 2013
#196: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:55:51 AM

I'm hoping that Danny Rand performs better in Defenders. If thats the case then it will be fair to say that there will need to definitely be some changes in terms of writers and showrunners for Iron Fist. I'm hoping that his and Luke Cage's interactions are as good as the cast members claim to be. Hopefully Finn Jones got some more training and better direction in Defenders as well.

edited 21st Mar '17 11:56:52 AM by clockworkboy

Tis the great art of life to manage well The restless mind
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#197: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:20:30 PM

I kept thinking about how they could have made Kunlun more real on their budget....and I have started to wonder if it had helped if they simply had used paintings. Like, whenever one of the characters talked about Kunlun, they could have blended over to a beautiful piece of art depicting the moment. I know it sounds like a cop out, but it might have worked better than what we got (though what we got was better than even more cheap CGI).

[up] I have read that Finn Jones trained extensively for the show BUT there were some serious issues with the production itself. Apparently he once had only 25 minutes to learn a choreography. If that is true, the only thing they need to do is putting more time and money into the fight scenes.

edited 21st Mar '17 12:22:22 PM by Swanpride

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#198: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:25:37 PM

I don't really understand what is so expensive about Kun-Lun. You just needed one sweeping Establishing Shot (like the show actually has a few times around the cave when Danny remembers fighting Shou-Lao and in the end). The rest make it interior shots of monasteries and similar places.

Failing that, I thought the way episode 6 dealt with Danny's "memories" of Lei Kung was a clever solution they could have used more (i.e when Danny remembers Lei Kung the Thunderer he just walks around the scene like an actual character would, talking to Danny, rather than going on a flashback).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#199: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:32:03 PM

[up] True - regarding the "blend in" scenes. That was something they did in the first episodes (I liked the moment when the white of Danny's bed became snow, even though the scene itself amounted to pretty much nothing...in fact, that would be the right moment for a sweeping shot....) but then they stopped doing it for some reason....

I wasn't impressed with the Kunlun scenes they had. They felt...well, staged. I never believed for a second that the cave is anything but a set. It didn't feel like a living breathing place.

edited 21st Mar '17 12:32:29 PM by Swanpride

iamthecircle Pretentious Scholar of English from The Armpit of the Bible Belt Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Pretentious Scholar of English
#200: Mar 21st 2017 at 12:50:16 PM

All the actors couldn't seem to speak higher of one another on the Defenders. Kristen Ritter in particular basically told a reporter she was already looking forward to the next one. I think Finn Jones works really well off of other actors, and Mike Colter has amazing charisma. I imagine it's very important to the writers to get their relationship down well, so I am optimistic about their interactions.

[up]I remember that being a nice touch with the sheets and the snow. More stuff like that would have really helped the show have it's own personal directorial flair to distinguish it from the others. Though it also becomes increasingly clear the production was rushed without much of a budget, so maybe that's part of the problem there.

Also I could have used more scenes of Danny training as a boy at K'un L'un. They couldn't make or find a nice temple? It would help really sell his clearly ambivalent feelings on the place. It seems like there were good things about it, but people are still abusive asshats in heaven too, I guess.

edited 21st Mar '17 12:52:02 PM by iamthecircle


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