TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

ContraPoints

Go To

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#676: Jan 2nd 2020 at 12:43:13 PM

Wow there! I know she likes outrageous outfits but this one's a bit much!

edit: Well, I thought I'd watch it bit by bit but I ended up watching it all in one go. Tldw:

  • Natalie starts by explaining that when calling-out on Twitter is used as a way to strike back against people too rich or powerful to be threatened by legal justice, it follows the logic of believing the victims instead of ignoring or dismissing them. But that well-intentioned logic is very easy to abuse by not-so-well-intentioned people and can become a presumption of guilt.
  • She first brings up the case of makeup youtuber James Charles and shows how a couple of out-of-context comments by and about him were deformed to make him seem like a transphobe, a racist and a manipulative sexual predator.
  • A large stretch is about "the Buck Angel affair" and how a. a harmless, 10-second snipet overshadowed a 40-minute video and b. guilt by association led to the "cancelation" spreading to her friends who weren't involved in the video and other people who aren't even acquainted with her. She states her disagreement with BA's views but refuses to condemn him as a person.
  • After trying to dig up info about BA "outing Lana Wachowski", she noted that the case was not actually that clear cut, and then… began to realize that digging up years, even decades back to find reasons to personally attack someone might not be a healthy practice.
  • She goes over some of her most criticized tweets, clarifying what she meant for some and apologizing for others (notably the infamous "old-school transexual" one, which she finds stupid in retrospect)
  • She objects to the idea that an immediate apology is more sincere and that a belated one is suspicious. Because in the latter case you can take your time to organize your thoughts and reflect on what you did wrong and why. That's why she thinks the video format is a lot more constructive than a Tweet thread.
  • She explains that after suffering a first wave of harrassment early in her transition, she stopped relying on social media for emotional support and looked for, well, actual friends instead, which made her more resilient to later harrassment. But at the same time it makes her a burden to said friends, who can be threatened just because they have ties with an "Enemy", in a "with us or against us" logic.
  • By the end, she notes that someone who's relatively privileged like her might not be that harmed by Twitter canceling, but for people who are more vulnerable, that harrassment can pile up with other personal circumstances and lead up to tragedies.

As I know none of the people mentioned in this video, I can't comment on whether they're "bad people" or not, but there's admittedly some pretty scary stuff in there. Comforts me in the idea that Twitter is the worst possible place to hold discussions.

Edited by Lyendith on Jan 2nd 2020 at 1:07:58 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#677: Jan 2nd 2020 at 3:59:00 PM

Heh. I actually am familiar with some of the people she brought up, from the screencaps. I know I'm familiar with them because she didn't bother censoring the profile pictures - and I happen to know that some of them didn't change theirs. If it helps, I don't think they're bad people.

Though, you know, its really fucking ironic that she'd mention that "cancellation" hurts the most vulnerable, when she just essentially painted a bulls-eye to her colossal number of followers on a bunch of other Trans people for them to go harass.

The "guilt by association" is pretty ironic too - Philosophy Tube and Lindsay, who I presume she was talking about, were called out because they waded in to defend her and got snide towards anyone criticizing her, rather than being associated.

(Edited to thump out a part that was too vitriolic)

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:04:49 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#678: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:05:44 PM

The fact that you didn't watch it and saying what you are saying is kinda proving her point.

Not saying you should agree with her, but still.

Watch Symphogear
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#679: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:07:54 PM

I don't feel like I need to watch a nearly two hour video to object to her putting her critics out at the mercy of her followers like that.

One can have a moral objection without needing to see every second of someone's work.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#680: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:16:27 PM

[up]Maybe, but it can also put you are risk of of complaing of think you don watch.

Anyway, this video is less informative and more and sort of response video of what it happen and it was seen eventually would happen, I really dont know what to said a this point.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#681: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:28:33 PM

I know I'm familiar with them because she didn't bother censoring the profile pictures - and I happen to know that some of them didn't change theirs.

[...]

Though, you know, its really fucking ironic that she'd mention that "cancellation" hurts the most vulnerable, when she just essentially painted a bulls-eye to her colossal number of followers on a bunch of other Trans people for them to go harass.

Does Twitter have a function where you can search people by using their profile pics instead of their names now? (The names being the things that were censored, since names tend to be a greater indicator of someone's identity than a damn avatar. Like this honestly confuses me)

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#682: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:59:37 PM

I think the most interesting thing she brings up is her view that Cancel Culture at its worst has a tendency to distort and exaggerate things over time.

She uses the example of James Charles. She starts by saying that he was accused of trying to trick straight men. Via an assumption of guilt, it was then assumed that he had DEFINITELY done this. Then, the whole thing became abstracted into the more general sentiment: "James Charles is toxic and manipulative." The narrative went from holding James accountable for things he may have done, to an assault on his very character. The same thing happened when people brought up clips of James that were criticized as being racist or transphobic. It went from just "James made some problematic tweets." to "James Charles is a racist transphobe." Natalie agrees that the clips and tweets looked bad, and he deserved to be called out for them, but in her opinion they also came off like genuine stupid mistakes, not necessarily comments made due to some essential evil in James' soul. The problem with Cancel Culture (in her mind) is that it boils down the mistakes a person has made (regardless of context) into some grand inditment of their very being, which isn't always the appropriate response to a person who says questionable things. Sometimes they may admit to being mistaken when presented with a gentler hand, or they could be wrong but not enough to warrant such a harsh penalty.

I am curious about Buck Angel though. I don't know anything about him other than what Natalie said, and she could have been leaving stuff out. What has he actually done to deserve the amount of ire he's gotten? Natalie says that while she's never seen him speak openly against the concept of Non-binary people, she concedes that one could easily read that into Buck based on his attitude. So, has he ever said anything concretely bad? Or is it really all in the vibe he gives off?

Edited by GNinja on Jan 2nd 2020 at 1:08:32 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#683: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:10:52 PM

[up]cancel culture problem is pretty much "there are good people and bad people and good people dosent said bad thing like you did" that and a sense of "if I tell you to deal with it is because you deserve it" there is a sense of satisfaction in punitive justice.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#684: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:11:21 PM

Some of the problems I have with the video is there are some things context can't make sound less offensive, one.

Two, it's impossible to tell when someone just needs a space to learn and grow, and when they've long made up their mind and reject and kind of growth, until you've talked with them long enough. And if they're the latter, you've already wasted your time and/or possibly endangered yourself in trying to get this person to see why what they said is wrong. Telling people to take everybody that says something fucked up, sit them down, and explain how it's fucked up on the off-chance they might go "oh wow, thanks for telling me, i'll definitely try to do better in the future" just isn't a practical solution.

Three, I'm not sure the video properly addresses the question of where we draw the line between being understanding and treating deliberately awful behavior with kid gloves "we don't have all the information". Do we need the full story for every crappy thing some prominent figure says on social media?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:14:59 AM

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#685: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:15:55 PM

I don't think she's saying everyone HAS to try, but saying that this hostility is unhelpful for people who are trying, on both the education and the learning enf.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#686: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:17:55 PM

For me this comes in degrees.

I'd only really "cancel" someone immediately if they said or did something extremely fucked up that we credibly knew about through people's testimony or other evidence. Like idk if the person gets outed as a white supremacist or rapist, something like that.

Otherwise if it's just in the realm of "kind of problematic/insensitive" then they should be criticized but I think it's fine to wait and see how they react to it first. If they double down or apologize but just continue repeating the behavior then it's fine to "cancel" them.

Anything in-between is your call. It doesn't mean that you have to personally do anything to "enlighten" them or whatever if you don't want to, you can just criticize them and move on.

Obviously though people are going to have different thresholds for that sort of thing and that's kind of inevitable. And there's always going to be problems with any kind of social movement or ideology, people are imperfect.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 2nd 2020 at 9:21:14 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#687: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:28:12 PM

On images:

One can easily do a "reverse image search" if they have a copy of the picture, but otherwise, its not too hard to breeze through tweets looking for the correct profile pic. Especially if they have their real face exposed, like some of them did.

There's a reason twitter accounts that try to find bad takes tend to block out pfp and names of anyone innocent, and most frequently if they said something contemptible too. Its usually considered bad twitter manners to quote tweet or screencap and leave uncensored identifying information for accounts significantly smaller than your own. Not to do so can end in a small account getting dogpiled by hostility.

On Buck Angel:

If you want more on what he did, look into it yourself. I'm not wading through Transphobic bile all over again just to prove he's a Transmed and exclusionist. The receipts are there if you look for them.

On waiting to see how someone reacts...:

This has been bubbling for well over a year now. I remember posting in this very forum since last April about it, and it was old news by then. I don't know how long one is supposed to wait before realizing that the other person has dug in their heels and is refusing to do better. But surely, its been long enough.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:32:03 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#688: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:32:42 PM

On waiting to see how someone reacts...this has been bubbling for well over a year now. I remember posting in this very forum since last April about it, and it was old news by then. I don't know how long one is supposed to wait before realizing that the other person has dug in their heels and is refusing to do better. But surely, its been long enough.

I'm not really familiar with the Buck Angel stuff but just speaking generally, I don't think one has to wait that long because if people are going to respond in the optimal way they're not going to wait too long. If it's been like over a year or whatever and the person still hasn't made any effort to redress their wrongs then it's totally fine to dismiss them.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#689: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:33:08 PM

[up][up][up]Issue is also insensitive jokes a bigot one dosent make, people sometimes are assholes or idiot who things something is funny, othertime it can exposed something but there is a sense of "no, you cant" which it make thing to far.

Edited by unknowing on Jan 2nd 2020 at 9:33:48 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#690: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:37:58 PM

The Buck Angel stuff happened a month or two back, but the whole "Contra keeps saying problematic things..."

Here's a post I made about some of it... in October. Of the previous year.

This is why I'm so frustrated. Its not a "oh no a bunch of bullies came along and picked a fight over nothing", anger has been building with Contrapoints for a very long time. Its a pattern. People have been, first politely, then angrily, been calling her out for years, and when it became to much to ignore the narrative was changed and suddenly anyone who was criticizing her was cancelling her and therefor a valid target to harass.

AdricDePsycho was doing it even further back.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:42:12 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#691: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:41:05 PM

[up]Yeah when I noticed this became a pattern I have to admit I got kind of concerned. It's partly why I stopped watching her videos since it seems like every few months she'd do or say something ill-advised. I get that it's not easy being a public figure and that you might not necessarily know everything about the people you get involved with, so I'm not totally unsympathetic to her, but I definitely understand why people don't want to support her anymore when she keeps doing these things. Especially if it ends up encouraging people to harass figures who criticize her for this pattern of behavior.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 2nd 2020 at 9:44:09 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#692: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:42:58 PM

Personally I just want Twitter to vanish forever. I think people put far too much stock in tweets. Like they're these smoking guns.

They can be, but I also think Twitter is almost inherently both corruptive and addictive. When you're drunk, or in a dark place mentally, you still have this massive platform where you can freely shout any half baked thought that drips into your brain. Natalie's most infamous tweet came from her basically venting on in response to another conversation she was having. Looking back she says she has no idea what she was even going for in the first place.

I know when I've been wound up by the internet I've spouted a bunch of awful shite online that I didn't agree with or thought was embarassing when I read it back later.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe that stress and anger REVEALS your true self or DISTORTS your real self?

Edited by GNinja on Jan 2nd 2020 at 2:10:12 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#693: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:55:08 PM

I understand that there are valid criticisms and concerns surrounding things Natalie Wynn and Contrapoints (who are indeed separate entities!) have said/tweeted, but I really agree with a lot of what Wynn said in her most recent video. Cancel culture can theoretically be useful, but it often ends up harming vulnerable people rather than actual oppressors.

I also dislike the idea of cancelling people for associating with "bad people" (I know that's not what all the controversy around Contrapoints has centred around, but it's been a large part). Unless you're actively supporting someone awful or platforming them in a way that shines a positive light on their views, I don't see how association with a bad person makes you a bad person. I also think Wynn makes valid points about how engaging sincerely with awful people can make them less awful — and while no one is forcing that belief upon anyone, it is nonetheless a valid belief, and not one meriting cancellation in my opinion.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#694: Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:03:14 PM

Uh, I remembered that I still hadn't watched the Opulence video with all that shitstorm. I should get to that.

shackwave Ultraman Omega from Nebula M78 Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Ultraman Omega
#695: Jan 3rd 2020 at 3:36:47 AM

This cancelled thing is getting ridiculous, it's making progressives look bad, I'm sorry but it is. if it wasn't for Contra Points lots people would of fell down the alt right rabbit hole.

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#696: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:34:46 AM

Lots of people still fall down that rabbit hole, so I'm not sure that logic tracks.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#697: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:45:15 AM

Huh? That sounds like you're saying if Contra doesn't catch them all she may as well not bother? Now that is weird logic...

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#698: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:49:24 AM

[up]Wait, are you responding to me? I'm saying that while Contra may have led some people away from that rabbit hole, lots of others are still falling down it, so acting like she's the one thing keeping people out of the alt-right doesn't make sense.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#699: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:55:03 AM

I don't think anyone is implying she's the only one. I think you'd have to read implications that might not be in shackwave's statement to come away with that.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#700: Jan 3rd 2020 at 5:01:00 AM

Likewise, you'd have to do the same for my reply to think I'm saying Contra shouldn't bother if she can't get 'em all.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.

Total posts: 882
Top