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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#651: Oct 20th 2019 at 6:33:16 PM

[up]Which is weird because she describe in the praticioner current of how to view transgender issue, describe herself as women in the body of a man rather than a transwoman until she transition, making her less old school by those estandar.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#652: Oct 21st 2019 at 9:32:34 AM

[up][up] I think I should point out that I'm only a few months younger than Wynn (at 30) and came out a similar amount of time ago (2015). Trans women our age grew up well after the trans rights movement began gathering steam. We ain't that old, let alone "old school transsexuals" (trans people stopped using the word transsexual in the 70's; the rest of society caught on by the 90's). You need to be older than that for transsexual to be a word you're used to using.

The transmed view was never a mainstream narrative; trans people just nodded their head and went along with it to get treatment (or just died), the public didn't know a thing about trans issues anyway. The only people who ever believed in transmedicalist views were the doctors who ignored their patients. Transmeds are simply trans people who don't understand this, and got their understanding of being trans from out of date medical textbooks (or rather, other transmeds by this point).

Side Note: Trans people who pass well enough to go stealth tend to be more likely to be transmed, but only because they don't have much contact with the wider trans community. In other words people like Buck Angel.

Edited by Bisected8 on Oct 21st 2019 at 5:34:04 PM

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Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#653: Oct 21st 2019 at 1:18:37 PM

[up] I've personally seen the word "transsexual" used in media well into the noughties, and even a few times in the early 10s. Maybe Europe was a bit late on that front?

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#654: Oct 21st 2019 at 1:26:55 PM

Hang on now were conflating things. Being "Old School" doesn't mean you're transmed. Natalie outright says she's not transmed. It seems what Natalie is describing herself as is an assimilationist: someone who doesn't want her identity to be a major factor or talking a point in her life and in an ideal world wants to live a normalised life just like the majority of people.

Hense why a lot of ground taken by less assimilationist trans movments which encourages society to acknolage trans experiences explicitly so to accomidate a different experience is difficult for her. Cis people demanding her pronouns is hard for her because she doesn't want that part of her life scrutinised.

And honnestly I don't feel like the western trans comunity stopped being heavily assimilationist until 2012 at the earliest. It wasn't until then that I saw people being unapologetically trans and demanding a space to be created for them. Prior to that the narrative was (as even I as a 26 year old am old enough to remember this) was that trans people should distence themselves entierly from any evidence that they're non cis, including distencing themselves from former friends and locations. All of my trans woman role models who transitioned prior to 2012, we talking Jen Richards, Angelica Ross, Laverne Cox - none of them have their age or place of birth publically known.

Of course this wasn't an option for Natalie because her career was highly visible as a You Tube personality, but you can see it in how she navigates her accomidations.

Now of course I'm not saying that this is a rule. I also grew up with that same narrative that being trans should be a closely guarded secret if possible, but I still reject assimilatinist narratives and wear the trans colours day in day out.

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#655: Nov 2nd 2019 at 12:03:40 PM

So, apparently she addressed the controversy in the stream and someone made a transcript of that. I haven't actually watched said stream, though, just found this transcript on reddit, but it seems real as far I can tell.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#656: Nov 2nd 2019 at 3:48:12 PM

She comes across as overwhelmed and confused.

She out right says that she disagrees with Buck's views and that they're hurtful, and that given a second oppotunity she probably wouldn't have included him, but also says that she doesn't think disvowing people and excomunicating them is useful.

I'm not sure how she views the former as different from the latter.

I know she's probably on the brink of a break down considering how stressful constantly being cancelled is, but I still find it disheartening that she doesn't possess any clarity on what her priorities are.

I also don't appriciate her viewing her interaction with the non-binary discourse as a sucsess- her videos up until Transtrenders (as good as that video was) were pretty hard on the non-binary comunity.

Personally I don't think collabing with Buck in such a tiny way, even though he's unambiguously crappy to non-binary people and even other trans people, is much of an issue because it's not even offering him a platform. If she'd put out a statement saying just that he was cast because he's a trans actor who sounds like the historical figure and that collaborating with him in this small way is not an edorcement of his clearly hurtful views from the show Contrapoints, I'd probably be happy.

But that's not what this is.

This is also not an official statement, it's an off the cuff ramble.

All the same a lot of the stuff she said there makes me feel really on edge. Because she says that Contrapoints can't function as a safe space because it wants to engage people who's views the show doesn't agree with. But, having Buck do a tiny voice over doesn't further that? Using that argument makes it seem like it's a permission slip for the show to have bad optics without consideration. I'd be happy for Natalie to defend the show for being daring if there was some tangible benefit to the risks.

She doesn't seem to give a strong argument for why she shouldn't just say, correctly, that she doesn't endorce Buck's views. And for that reason it makes her consideration for the non-binary comunity watching feel equally weak.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#657: Nov 2nd 2019 at 4:41:05 PM

[up]If I have to guess is pretty simple "pretty words said nothing, you need deeds", for many it seen simple to said you dont endorse is view but still allow to be close to it, so people demand a sort of exemplary action in a way, something Contra dosent belive, problem is for many that sound a kinda way of saying "I dont care about non binary over buck" so it feel and issue.

And Yeah, she sound confuse because this is not really and stament but more of her rambling on her personal view, and she clearly look on conflict feelings.

First it show that Buck made a change on him because even when he was assing female on birth, he look like a man and it change is perception of transgenderism, indeed she disagree with him and it seen she didnt really see the extent other people didnt like him, but I feel she defensive because how oposition of her have turn agresive to some point, like aparently acussing her of being a terf even after all job she have show atacking the very concept of terfhood, is clearly she is fed up with tweeter and the culture around it and in that regard I cant blame her, tweeter is fucking toxic.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#658: Nov 3rd 2019 at 1:37:13 AM

She probably has suffered so much harrasment at this point she can't tell the difference between good faith and bad faith critisim easily.

I hope that doesn't end up detrimental to her ability to make the show.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#659: Nov 3rd 2019 at 10:15:39 AM

There’s a few parts Natalie said that I find disingenuous.

I don't believe that someone who is a trans activist who, for his part did many good things for the community should be completely excommunicated because of his bad opinions, you know what I mean?

But I also don't know if the solution to 'someone tweeted a bad thing' is to excommunicate them.

The problem with Buck Angel isn’t merely that he tweets bad things, it’s that he’s notorious for being a harasser within the trans community. Most especially when he outed Lana Wachowski as a 'creepy crossdresser', a situation that he of all people should know how dangerous that is.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 3rd 2019 at 10:46:40 AM

DoorCurtain Since: Nov, 2017
#660: Nov 3rd 2019 at 11:54:23 AM

I genuinely don't understand how Natalie can fuck up so consistently. Whether it's through collaborations or ideas expressed in her videos or the wording of her apologies, I can't see how she doesn't just take criticism in good faith.

I know people have harassed her, does the harassment get bad enough where you can't distinguish between good faith and bad faith criticism anymore, like Whowho said? If that's the case, maybe she should take a break and get better, this You Tube thing seems to be affecting her mentally and emotionally in a negative way.

Edited by DoorCurtain on Nov 3rd 2019 at 11:54:39 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#661: Nov 3rd 2019 at 12:52:48 PM

[up]Kinda, is one of those thing that every creator need to learn is that critism in good faith and constructuve sometimes is dificult to handle for pedantery and outright trolling,

Also it seen there is something she belive it clash with how tweeter and social media tend to act, like people expect a code of behivor more or less and in a page were rarely anyone get banned as tweet it do have foes the idea of pushing people back by their own, and idea it seen Natalie have trouble understanding, ether acepting critism because it seen people call her a terf.

And another issue is that...well, as she said the channel is not much a safe space, she closer to those skeptic channel of the early 2000 and she more willing to engage to various thing to the right and center, this is good when it talk about the alt right, incel and other stuff because it does with far more degree of sympathy than many and so unique insight(specially comparing incel forums with transgender page in the chans) but when it come to transgenderism is.....well, you can see the results.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#662: Nov 3rd 2019 at 2:29:43 PM

I'm not sure she can quit Youtube; it's her job and considering the cost of a lot of the medical stuff she's had done, I imagine she has a hefty debt to pay off.

DoorCurtain Since: Nov, 2017
#663: Nov 3rd 2019 at 3:11:10 PM

I didn't suggest she quit, just that she take a break. But yeah, if what you say is true, then taking a break, from her position, may not be a viable option for her, which is sad because it looks like she needs one.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#664: Nov 3rd 2019 at 11:08:37 PM

If you ask me, is tweeter need to get far away, is getting insane for her a this point.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#665: Nov 4th 2019 at 1:11:56 AM

I think my main issue with her explanation is the way she's made passive aggressive comments at people who broke ranks.

Most notably a dig at HBomber (quite frankly, the stream which started the "DK Says Trans Rights" meme did more for the trans community, especially here in the UK, than anything certain parties have done — not to mention it was the oppose the actions of a notorious transmisogynistDefinition  who Buck Angel has explicitly earned the approval of for his own transmisogynist views).

EDIT: This is a pretty good twitter thread on the validity of Wynn's claims to be "the last of the old school transsexuals". Written by a butch trans lesbian in her 40's

Oh, and as far as Natalie considering herself on of the last "old school transsexuals". She used to identify as non-binary. And I believe she's not straight? Those "old school transsexuals" and the systems they defended would have eaten her alive.

End Thread.

Edited by Bisected8 on Nov 4th 2019 at 10:07:32 AM

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#666: Nov 4th 2019 at 7:10:33 AM

I've seem people say it was probably not a dig on Hbomb, but on some other twitter minor celebrity. Mostly on the basis that they are friends and that Hbomb doesn't exactly fit the description. I am inclined to believe that logic because the alternative is frankly just too absurd. Never mind it being a random dig on a person she is friends with, but to claim Hbomb is popular because of tweets is just asinine considering his raise to fame in the trans comunity is, to my knowledge, thanks to the charity stream.

It was a poor choice of words if that is the case, but I can kinda understand as it was an improvised rant, not a scripted speech.

TheMazeController Since: Jan, 2014
#667: Nov 4th 2019 at 12:04:55 PM

Door Curtain: "I genuinely don't understand how Natalie can fuck up so consistently. Whether it's through collaborations or ideas expressed in her videos or the wording of her apologies, I can't see how she doesn't just take criticism in good faith."

Well, a lot of the criticism doesn't seem to be in good faith. Even a lot of the "reasonable" non-harassment criticism is on the lines of "she failed objectively and horribly, if she doesn't apologize in exactly the right way then she's harmed the trans community." [Edited to remove a needlessly combative aside] People feel like they have the RIGHT for media creators to have these very precise viewpoints and associations and verbiage. It's really entitled.

And yeah, the harassment matters. Experiencing a lot of harassment disinclines people to listen to more reasonable criticisms, especially when many of the people making the criticisms downplay the harassment (not all of course. Guitian called it out). Should Anita Sarkeesian have been enthusiastic about engaging with the guys who honestly thought Gamergate was about ethics in gaming journalism—who also thought that her harassment was either made up or not important because "hey, the people I KNOW aren't doing it"?

Edited by TheMazeController on Nov 4th 2019 at 3:06:55 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#668: Nov 4th 2019 at 12:17:02 PM

People were being doxxed during Gamergate. That's magnitudes higher for a comparison.

[down]Oh right, from the prior month.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 4th 2019 at 12:43:46 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#669: Nov 4th 2019 at 12:39:55 PM

[up]Two pages ago there were literally reports of people trying to doxx her...

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#670: Nov 4th 2019 at 12:40:14 PM

My girlfriend recently told me she doesn't identify as transgender, and actually prefers the term transexual. I'm having a weird time of it but it's made me more sympathetic to Natalie on this particular issue.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#671: Nov 4th 2019 at 12:45:27 PM

Annita is a good example on how harrasment can be a game changer in some stuff, because the stupidity of her critics and the harrasment make her pretty much the feminism rallying point about toxic fandoms, even when much of the stuff she was was ether a) bland feminism 101 everybody new and b) sometimes quite conservative with the implication that violence is inherently masculine her dig against Furiosa was not well receive....at all.

With Natalie it kinda happen and was bound to happen because her style is good in dealing with centrist and even alt righters but not much with LGTB comunity.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Zombie_Jack Since: May, 2019
#672: Nov 7th 2019 at 10:51:15 AM

Contra's comments about 'a streamer who yells Donkey Kong says trans rights' was pretty clearly aimed at H Bomb and his stream. H Bomb had previously begun criticizing her for having Buck Angel on her vid, so I feel like she may be a little peeved at him. On some level I almost feel like her comments about Hbomb are worse than some of her other fuck ups, at least a lot of those could be chalked up to her internalizing her own insecurity as a discomfort with "Zoomer trans kids", going after Hbomb after he's defended her time and time again feels vindictive.

IDK I used to be one of those people who defended her a lot, but the more she fucks up the more I feel like she doesn't actually want to do good, she just wants people to think she's progressive. She makes the same mistakes so consistently and every time she "apologizes" she always frames it like she's the real victim. She never seems to actually change and grow, like other lefttubers mess up but they'll usually actually show signs of change after they're called out (even if it takes a bit of time). She just....Isn't showing that.

It's also really weird for her to 1) imply that transmedicalism is an old school trans belief when really it's a fairly recent phenomenon that was, ironically, mostly popularized on tumblr and 2) imply that she's some old soul that just doesn't understand us youngins when she isn't that old and usually tries pretty hard to stay relevant.

I don't know, I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt that she's just going through some things and she's in a difficult part of her transition because I feel like most of us have been there, but now I'm starting to suspect she just cannot take criticism and doesn't really care how her actions effect others. I'm really hoping that's not the case, so I feel kinda bad saying that, but I'm starting to suspect it might be.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#673: Nov 13th 2019 at 4:33:09 PM

ehhhhh She IS progresive, there plenty to said against her but that is not one of it.

For what it see she does sorry when it get wrong every now and them but is clear a this point she have a set of belief that is kinda going against much of mainstrain transgender comunity and this is going to kept going, I mean this is not new, she always being somewhat old fashion and very edgy in her aproach, it serve wonder when analyzing the alt right or incels and their neurosis but now.....

At this point I feel contra is become more and more a "leave or deal with it" kind of thing, she can aplogy for fucking up and she does but a some point this are not acciden but just plain disagreement with other, with all that entails.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
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#674: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:47:54 AM

Contra's thoughts on Cancel Culture.

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#675: Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:10:21 AM

I can see the flame wars from here

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