TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

ContraPoints

Go To

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#226: Feb 2nd 2018 at 2:32:16 PM

Contra explicitly says multiple times she was afraid of other transwomen criticizing her, not just TER Fs.

MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#227: Feb 2nd 2018 at 2:35:54 PM

"SJW" is a meaningless slur. Any meaning it ever had is long gone.

"SJW" is one of those terms that has devolved to mean "people the user doesn't like". The same fate befell the word "troll", and IMO, "echo chamber" is headed there, as well.

But there still have been misbehaving, aggressive and disingenuous people in the social justice camp, too, separate from whether the word SJW has lost meaning?

Another (not-very-long) branch of discussion could come of me asking something similar about trolling and echo chambers, but perhaps later....

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#228: Feb 2nd 2018 at 2:36:15 PM

[up][up][up]There are leftist transphobes. Sadly, not everyone on the left is an all around decent person.

edited 2nd Feb '18 2:36:52 PM by Antiteilchen

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#229: Feb 2nd 2018 at 2:44:47 PM

Being transphobic and being a leftist feels almost anathema. If they hold leftist ideals than at best they lean more conservative and are tepid as fuck about their beliefs. They're called TERF's.

[up][up]

What, like a few idiots who pop up every so often? That doesn't justify the snarl word usage that the alt right have turned it into.

edited 2nd Feb '18 2:45:23 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#230: Feb 2nd 2018 at 2:45:06 PM

[up][up]Sure...but most of those people are TERF types. And they're not real well known for their commission to the actual left-wing movement.

edited 2nd Feb '18 2:47:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#231: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:10:15 PM

What, like a few idiots who pop up every so often? That doesn't justify the snarl word usage that the alt right have turned it into.

So they're not common? Are these idiots harmless? Are they limited to just using aggressive language over social media? Does the social justice community think that these idiots make the community look bad(however little sense it might make to some people)?

Is it solely/mainly the alt-right using the SJW-word? Do you mean it has originated with the alt-right and crept up insidiously to other people's language?

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#232: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:15:58 PM

Is it solely/mainly the alt-right using the SJW-word? Do you mean it has originated with the alt-right and crept up insidiously to other people's language?

What you can tell by the person using the word is they're quite likely not sympathetic to social justice and dislike people who make any sort of societal critique of the status quo. That doesn't necessarily require the person being an alt-righter (in fact, that's often not the case), but it does mean there's a problem and that they probably buy into a stupid stereotype.

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#233: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:18:13 PM

So they're not common? Are these idiots harmless? Are they limited to just using aggressive language over social media? Does the social justice community think that these idiots make the community look bad(however little sense it might make to some people)?

  1. Not nearly as much as the anti-SJW community wants you to believe.
  2. Mostly, yes.
  3. See 2.
  4. Probably depends on who you talk to.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:18:58 PM by PhysicalStamina

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#234: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:20:33 PM

The problem is most of the time people aren't even referring to the fringe idiots the term might be reasonably applied to, but anyone who dared make any kind of societal critique or called someone out for saying or doing something shitty. They have this idea of "SJW's" as a faceless mass of people with identical opinions where no nuance really exists.

MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#235: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:22:28 PM

[up][up] More elaboration on 4, please?

[up] Well, calling out some words like the N-word is completely reasonable.

It's completely different from, say, shutting down someone's reasonable input by accusing them of man-splaining or cisplaining or whatever and presenting that as a calling-out. I make no claims about how common this latter thing is(since I don't know), but that would be pretty much another form of browbeating, which is not dependent on specific content (a classical one being "You're influenced by the Devil" or "You're in league with Satan").

But of course, this one would boil down to simple generality: Calling out misbehavior is desirable, browbeating, intimidation, harassment and bullying under any guise is not. (No insinuations toward any specific groups intended, so please don't read them here.)

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:31:24 PM by MerryMikael

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#236: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:25:50 PM

[up]Some people might think "SJWs" make the rest of them look bad, others think their influence and harmfulness is grossly exaggerated.

I don't see what needed elaboration there.

Also what [up][up] said. The whole "SJW" outrage is a result of angry, sexless teenagers who were told to maybe be more considerate of the feelings of others one time and threw a tantrum that never ended.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:29:11 PM by PhysicalStamina

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#237: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:37:20 PM

[up] I find that a little hard to believe. At least I find it hard to believe that these "angry, sexless teenagers who were told to maybe be more considerate of the feelings of others one time and threw a tantrum that never ended" would be the sole cause here. I do believe that in some cases at least an idiot giving a barrage of verbal aggression to people probably contributed on its own part.

Perhaps a reference to radical flank effect makes sense.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#238: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:41:46 PM

And honestly, if you really think about it, it doesn't make sense to expect any big ideological group to be perfect. You can find shitty people no matter what they claim to believe in. Like Contra said, if you want the truth you have to engage with the best arguments that people have to offer, not cherrypicking people with obviously terrible opinions and decide they represent everyone in a given group.

Some fringe idiots on tumblr don't automatically invalidate years of scientific and sociological research on how majority and minority social dynamics work, the nature of privilege and prejudice, societal inequalities, etc.

[up] It's possible that people can be turned off by a needlessly confrontational reaction, and that's unfortunate, but the problem is most of these things are uncomfortable anyway. Nobody's gonna like it when you accuse them of saying something racist/sexist/transphobic/insensitive, no matter how nice you are.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:44:28 PM by Draghinazzo

PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#239: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:44:41 PM

I do believe that in some cases at least an idiot giving a barrage of verbal aggression to people probably contributed on its own part.

You may be right, in the sense that right-wing youtube pundits cherry-picked examples of said idiots to claim that there are far more like them than there actually are, and they have far more influence than they actually do, as a means to discredit the Left and any actual attempts at social justice from them.

t's possible that people can be turned off by a needlessly confrontational reaction, and that's unfortunate, but the problem is most of these things are uncomfortable anyway. Nobody's gonna like it when you accuse them of saying something racist/sexist/transphobic/insensitive, no matter how nice you are.

Again, this also. You could be Mother Theresa herself, if you could 15-year-old white kid that using the word "gay" as an insult is homophobic, their reaction will be just as indignant.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:47:32 PM by PhysicalStamina

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#240: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:49:55 PM

I can see, though, how nasties could end up discrediting an entire movement.

[up][up] & [up] But then it ought not to be whether a calling-out is uncomfortable, but whether it's actually necessary, warranted and proportional to an instance.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:51:43 PM by MerryMikael

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#241: Feb 2nd 2018 at 3:53:16 PM

I feel like this discussion is just moving the goalpost? Yes, sometimes you'll get people who will react in a disproportionate way to someone's feedback or whatever, but that doesn't mean that "SJW" isn't mostly a snarl word which was the original point here. If one wants people to take them seriously when they're making a critique of someone with ostensibly progressive views, they're better off not using it.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:54:39 PM by Draghinazzo

MerryMikael Since: Oct, 2013
#242: Feb 2nd 2018 at 4:10:33 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I can definitely agree that taking the stronger arguments of both sides would be better. And of course anyone's bad behavior should be confronted no matter what they espouse as a cover (which I'm not saying requires the SJW-word). I definitely see the need to confront when necessary, warranted and proportional, regardless of if it's uncomfortable or not, and I also see the right to call-out, criticize, ignore and respond to disproportional and unwarranted "confrontations".

But so this doesn't become just generalities by me....

A summa summarum of my understanding: I still don't believe the SJW-word has a sole cause, even if overuse and misuse has drained it of its meaning. I still believe that the word has possibly originated in part by some people acting in a more extreme and unnecessarily hostile manner in the name of social justice, which not only has left ill feelings and ended up looking more common than it is(It would seem to me that the reference to radical flank effect would thus make sense and explain something), but also has gotten exploited, cherry-picked and misrepresented by the far-right. The word has then devolved through overuse into a snarl word to dismiss anyone arguing for social justice no matter how reasonably they speak for their position.

I asked to get a clearer picture and to understand better. Hence my questioning. Thank you for patience.

edited 2nd Feb '18 4:24:47 PM by MerryMikael

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#243: Feb 2nd 2018 at 6:02:59 PM

Those rabid folks who'd attack her are what we call transphobes. Those aren't leftists.

Well, some other leftist forums I've seen have started to descend into fights about whether Contra is pandering to nazis and turning into another Laci Green every time a video of hers is posted, so I could see that group of people attacking her even if they're not TER Fs, just a Contrapoints hatedom.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#244: Feb 2nd 2018 at 6:24:02 PM

I was specifically referring to the people who'd support the theory of autogynephelia, not Contra's critics who have gotten angry at her over wooing less than savory people. I've been very vocal in criticizing some of her actions despite genuinely liking her content, but anyone who'd dislike her for calling out a transphobic theory as being, well, transphobic aren't going to be a savory kind of people.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#245: Feb 2nd 2018 at 6:47:10 PM

[up]Fair enough, I misread your post then. Just one small nitpick: I meant people who go beyond reasonable criticism of her actions and videos and into somewhat conspiratorial theories about her being a nazi sympathizer.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#246: Feb 2nd 2018 at 6:49:01 PM

Conspiratorial in what regard?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#247: Feb 2nd 2018 at 7:12:53 PM

Basically claiming she's in some kinda plot with some right wing youtubers to shift right when the channel gets bigger and "redpill" her audience.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#248: Feb 2nd 2018 at 7:18:42 PM

That mostly sounds like a fringe group full of paranoia. Paranoia I can certainly understand, mind, but paranoia nonetheless. As much as I've grown outright angry towards Contra, she's no Laci.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#249: Feb 2nd 2018 at 8:12:55 PM

"anyone who'd dislike her for calling out a transphobic theory as being, well, transphobic aren't going to be a savory kind of people."

Just bitter and salty then.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#250: Feb 2nd 2018 at 8:14:59 PM

No? Transphobic. They'd be transphobic if they're seriously mad at her calling out a transphobic theory.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

Total posts: 882
Top