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Misused (Alt names crowner 8/2/2017): Lolicon

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SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 4:52:32 AM

When cleaning up Freud Was Right, I came across No Yay and noticed that it was using lolicon a number of times for "creepy paedophile" or "creepy hebe/ephebo-phile", which is not the correct use of lolicon - we have Pćdo Hunt and Ephebophile for these uses, lolicon is about a specific portrayal in Japanese media. There was a thread back in 2012 which found and cleaned up a major pattern of such misuse, but it seems like it may be coming back.

Also, 1700+ wicks, many of them for non-Japanese, are a wee bit much for a Japanese cultural trope.

Two other threads, both a long time ago.

Wick check based on a random sample of wicks:

Lolicon wicks

Not Japanese medium, suspect

Questionable - could fall either way

  • Akahori Gedou Hour Lovege
    • Lolicon — Aimi is this one, Kaoruko is the male version. This is part of their primary motivation for wanting to become stars. Harems of young boys and girls.
      • In fact, these respective fetishes were what led Aimi and Kaoruko to leave their hometowns. Well, that and the fact that their fathers wouldn't allow them to become famous comedians.
  • Funny.Bakemonogatari
    • Koyomi meeting young Hanekawa.
    Young! Hanekawa: Are you...a pervert?!
    Koyomi: [A look of genuine horror]
    • In the same vein, Shinobu getting hot and bothered over a young Koyomi.
  • Characters.Bakemonogatari
    • Lolicon: Suruga gets awfully excited upon seeing Shinobu and Nadeko.
  • Being Meiling
  • Recap.Jeans Magical Education
  • Showa & Vampire
    • Lolicon: In some ways, it seems Yukari is trying to manipulate Shinichi into becoming one, at least if her teasing about making him take her to a love hotel is anything to go by.

There is such a thing as "lolicon fans"?

  • BrokenBase.Anime And Manga
    • Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Force and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid mangas. ViVid was well received, but a significant minority of readers who had been fans of StrikerS and the sci-fi direction the franchise had gone in looked down on it. Force, meanwhile, is rarely viewed with better than neutrality; it has almost completely ditched the Magical Girl elements, has a male protagonist (which set the Bishojo and Lolicon fans up in arms) and set off a Lensman Arms Race of Story Breaker Powers, which angered the science fiction half of the fandom.
  • YMMV.Pokken Tournament
    • Base-Breaking Character
      • Braixen. A number of players are glad that a not-fully-evolved Pokémon was finally included on the roster to mix things up for variety, although many players seem to convey that the most probable rationale for Braixen's inclusion over its evolution, Delphox, being purely based off of "better aesthetics" note , with a secondary reason being attributed to Braixen's legs lending themselves towards better agility/movement during combat. Other players are dismayed with the inclusion, feeling that Braixen is out of place on the roster since it is not fully evolved, and that Delphox (who some players feel has a decent design) should have been included instead, on account of Delphox being the highest-evolved member of the Fennekin evolutionary Pokémon family/line.note  This is, to a lesser extent, similar to those regarding that Raichu should be in the roster instead of Pikachu Libre or just Pikachu.

Questionable - creepy is pointed out but humour is not

  • Characters.Bakemonogatari
    • Only Sane Man
      • Contrasting all the other narrators so far, in Hitagi End he's mellow, reserved, down to Earth and his perspective even shows the world as it surely must be rather than the twisted version the other characters see. We even see actual background characters, his internal monologue is baffled at the way people speak, especially about Hanekawa. Somehow, the villainous conman is the one with the most normal view of the world out of every character seen so far.
      • In particular, he seems to find Koyomi's lolicon tendencies kinda creepy. At the end of the arc, they finally run across each other and to Kaiki he's a stupid meddlesome kid who doesn't understand anything and just makes things worse.
  • Hard Candy
    • Ripped from the Headlines: It's been said the story was inspired by gangs of young Japanese girls. They lure in certain kinds of men by playing the part of "innocent-yet-naughty" schoolgirls, and once they have him alone, they beat, rob, and blackmail him.
  • YMMV.Kantai Collection
  • WMG.NEEDLESS
    • The transplantation of Blade's brain will create Blade and Eve's current personalities
If they're going to use part of Blade's brain for the transplantation, it will probably affect the other parts of the brain, turning him into the Too Dumb to Live Lolicon we all know and love. Likewise, a part of Eve's brain will probably be taken out to for the transplant. The part that they remove will probably cause her to give everyone nicknames while the part that will be placed in will result in her more confrontational personality as Blade was a lot more confrontational before the transplant.
  • Jossed. Blade reveals he's a pervert lolicon thanks to Cruz being naked with socks. Eve didn't have any parts of her brain removed and she apparently acted the way she did before the transplant.

Reference to the word "loli", which has paedo implications

Reference to paedophile pandering, thankfully no actual pandering so far

May actually be correct, given page context. Some double counting may skew numbers

Pantheon stuff that seems suspect of misuse

Probable general paedophilia reference

Mistaken for Pedophile, may or may not be lolicon

  • Conflict Ball
    • In Haiyore! Nyarko-san, the trio of Nyarko, Cuuko, and Hasta are always being clingy and disruptive, to the annoyance of Mahiro. However, they take it even further in episode 11 of the second TV series, when Mahiro is asked by his mother to babysit a young alien girl named Guthatan. While he does his best to look after the child, the other three are acting even worse than normal, with Cuuko constantly harassing Mahiro to make her breakfast while Hasta gets extremely jealous of how much attention Guthatan is getting. Nyarko gets it even worse, acting even more jealous than Hasta and at one point jumping to the conclusion that Mahiro had sex with Guthatan. While the conflict is a plot point, only one small element (Guthatan getting a cut on her forehead during a battle where Nyarko et al. went overboard) is explained; the rest of it comes off as if the trio just woke up that morning and decided to be as selfish and annoying as possible. And this isn't even mentioning the things they did earlier, like loudly playing video games in Mahiro's room while he was trying to sleep.
  • Suika
    • Lolicon: Oujo refuses to change unless Hiroshi is in the room with her, leading to a very predictable misunderstanding when Kako walks in.
  • Not What It Looks Like
    • In World Embryo Riku's father comes home unexpectedly after a business trip. As he arrives, he notices Shizuru acts weird and seems to try to prevent him from entering part of the house. However, he has an urgent need to go to the toilet. He manages to get past her, opens the restroom door, and finds his son crouching down in front of the toilet, holding down the underpants of a pre-pubescent girl sitting on the toilet who closely resembles Shizuru's sister Amane when she was a kid. Cue "It's a misunderstanding!" from Riku.
  • The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3
    • Lolicon: Subverted in "The Beauty of Kootie": Mario uses Kootie's wand to transform Luigi into "Casanova Koopa". Kootie Pie immediately falls for him and kisses him on the lips passionately, which disgusts Luigi himself while in disguise. After Kootie accidentally changes him back (to say she overreacted would be a HUGE understatement), she spits out Luigi's germs.

May be correct, but "age gap" seems like the more correct reading

  • Characters.Tales Of Symphonia
    • Lolicon: Got labelled as this thanks to the game not being clear on how old he and Alicia actually were when they fell in love... and the fact that certain fans like to ship with with Presea. One can even label Regal a Lolicon if you choose the right answer when asked about his tastes in women. He is not amused. Zelos points this out in a OVA bonus, which earns Regal the group's disapproval until Lloyd defuses the situation. This one's Played for Laughs, however, as that very same OVA also cleared up the confusion. Not to mention that same OVA revealed that Alicia and he weren't as far apart in age as everyone thought.

Blatantly wrong - clearly "evil paedophile"

Exempt from consideration

Shotacon wicks

Misuse as "evil/creepy paedophile" with no indication of the humour aspect. Also including "creepy hebephile" and "creepy ephebophile" for convenience as they have the same issue:

References to shotacon porn. Thankfully no actual examples

Can't tell but suspect as it only talks about how creepy it is

May be correct usage

Non-Japanese example, suspect

Exempted wicks

Generic misuse (No Yay stuff)

  • Screw Yourself
    • There is fanart of Wind Waker Link and young Ocarina of Time Link. Also of Twilight Princess Link and adult Ocarina of time Link. And for the ones who want to cross over to Shotacon territory, there's always a combination of the two... including both versions of Ocarina of Time Link together. However, the only one of those that is Screw Yourself is the Ocarina of Time Links, as the others are just expies, identical great-great-(etc)-grandson, or Generation Xerox.
  • Screw Yourself
    • Professor Layton rarely (since the ship has a Shotacon nature) but still has the two Lukes of the third game, the little!Luke who is familiar to anyone who keeps up with the series, and his future self: big!Luke. Subverted when you discover "future Luke" is a sham.

In these terms, it seems like the pages got a large number of wicks that have nothing in common beyond "paedophilia in a Japanese work", which is not what the trope is about. Many links are unclear enough that I can't say if the misuse is widespread enough to warrant no action, a wick cleanup or some more thorough cleaning.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 8:39:40 AM

First off: why doesn't it have examples in the page?

Second: If this is a proper example of Lolicon then I might understand this trope, so... is this?

  • Elsword: Ciel stated in the second Season 3 Eltype comic that he really likes lolis and small cute things. In their intro, he even says that he bothered to take Lu to shelter and then protect her because of her cuteness. In another official comic, when Lu talks about how her "true form" would make men like Ciel head-over-heels for her, he mentally says that he'd prefer the current Lu more.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
Berrenta A chill in the air... from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
A chill in the air...
Jan 8th 2017 at 8:44:28 AM

[up] To answer your question, the trope had an Example Sectionectomy.

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 11:06:06 AM

As for the second question, I have no idea. The Family Guy example makes me wonder if this is just The Same, but More Specific of Black Comedy; maybe ~Discar, ~Marq FJA or ~Arha know as they took part in the first Lolicon TRS.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 11:17:14 AM

There are a lot of comedic lolicon characters inside anime as well as a lot of characters accused of it for the lutz. Also there are kinda lighter and softer implied versions without sexual harassment or assault too only because it's funny.

Like the dad in Mitsudomoe who loves his three kids but with the Face of a Thug he is arrested for being a lolicon at least once an episode. He is even taken away multiple times in the openings.

Or Bakemonogatari and Araragi's relationship with Hachikuji is complicated with many lolicon jokes.

edited 8th Jan '17 11:23:16 AM by Memers

Jan 8th 2017 at 11:24:21 AM

The word lolicon refers to pedophiles. The last TRS agreed to redefine our page to 'pedophiles played for laughs and portrayed as essentially harmless' when it originally referred to works that were part of some imagined lolicon genre or just the inclusion of underaged girls in general or whatever.

Thinking about it a bit more since then, the title may be too broad. I also suspect that widespread cleanup was never attempted given that one of those pages, Suika, has had the entry listed there since at least July of 2012 when it was moved to the VN namespace.

I don't think that the Family Guy entry, for example, is a proper use of the trope either, though the borders of the trope are kind of blurry. Family Guy portrays whatsisname, Herbert?, as a pretty creepy guy whereas the trope as I understand it does not have Black Humor overtones because the character in question is generally portrayed as being mostly harmless, probably to avoid alienating fans who are into such things and don't equate lolicon and pedophilia.

Whether or not we want to have a page on it or if it needs a new name or whatever, that is the trope as I understand it and how we came to have it.

As ^ noted Bakemonogatari is full of these kinds of jokes and why they can get uncomfortable for some viewers, the only in story recognition that it's kind of creepy comes in the form of one older character who's simply weirded out by the protagonist.

edited 8th Jan '17 11:26:27 AM by Arha

Jan 8th 2017 at 11:39:24 AM

[up] There are also little Hanekawa and the police box jokes.

It is a complete Values Dissonance since they are not always treated as Black Comedy but still comedy.

Serious ones are rare and getting rarer outside of Yaoi works like Super Lovers /shudder and historical works which actually happened. But I guess it's more acceptable to be a Shotacon than a lolicon across the board.

edited 8th Jan '17 11:41:58 AM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 12:46:00 PM

OK, there was a cleanup after the redefinition Arha mentioned, and another one during the content policy storms. So perhaps the previous redefinition was not really implemented correctly.

Wikipedia has pages on lolicon and shotacon and they are much broader definitions than what we have here. Probably people are thinking of these definitions when linking to this page and thus shoehorning ensues.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 12:53:29 PM

I would be fine with a rename actually and leave Lolicon and Shotacon a stub about the full definition.

I cant think of a title that would be appropriate though. Comedic Lolicon?

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 12:57:15 PM

Well, if rename, I'd move the term definition page to Lolicon and Shotacon so that people can tell it's about both.

For the underlying trope, I am not seeing much difference between the Japanese examples and the Family Guy example there. Both may be Black Comedy, which is a broad trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 1:13:51 PM

Family Guy is Black Comedy. Most anime examples are not quite dark like Black Comedy its just straight up played for normal laughs. Its the big Values Dissonance aspect.

I would probably say exemplfied by Negima where the 10 year old lead has a whole harem of 15 year olds many of whom want a serous relationship with him, nothing aside from jokes really happen, its not treated as Black Comedy at all but it is treated as comedy.

That's not to say there arn't any Black Comedy examples of it, those are what most of Its Not What It Looks Like accusations and such are, just you will find it more normal comedy than Black in a lot of works.

edited 8th Jan '17 1:16:55 PM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 1:17:10 PM

Huh. Black Comedy claims it's a genre. Surprising, seeing as I've seen it used as a trope a number of times.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 1:23:12 PM

So it is... umm I assumed it was just the 'its so offensive its funny' type of joke. Which is Family Guy and the Mitsudomoe example I brought up in a nutshell.

edited 8th Jan '17 1:25:18 PM by Memers

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 8th 2017 at 1:24:18 PM "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 8th 2017 at 2:01:59 PM

I guess, I assumed that would be more 'X starts out offensive then finishes with a funny punch line'. Thats what Black Comedy /Dark Comedy means though, *shrug*.

Well every time I said Black Comedy just insert that trope into it. >.<

Jan 8th 2017 at 5:40:17 PM

I thought Cringe Comedy is the genre and Black Comedy is the individual comedy.

That aside, yeah, some people use Lolicon like it's typically used outside: someone who likes lolis (either in a creepy way or not, but usually creepy). Even in Japan who derives light-hearted humor from lolicons, actual underage sex is still something bad for Japanese people.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
pokedude10 from Texas, but that should be obvious. Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 8th 2017 at 6:58:33 PM

So, if I understand this right, for an example to count as this trope: There has to be a character who is attracted to young girls, said character is harmless, not creepy, and Played for Laughs, and the work is Japanese or references Japanese culture?

Witty saying.
Jan 8th 2017 at 8:37:12 PM

I don't think the Japanese thing is necessary, it's just that you're probably not likely to see that kind of humor outside of anime or related media. I doubt you'd even see it in proper Japanese literature since it's a subculture thing.

Jan 8th 2017 at 9:02:12 PM

Maybe calling the trope (not the whole concept) "Lolicons Are Funny" (like Naked People Are Funny) would be better?

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 9th 2017 at 1:07:51 AM

I think that any title along these lines would be a bad idea as it will be misread by people as "pedophiles are funny". Which is going to land us in trouble again with advertisers and other folks and will be off-putting for people.

I also think that perhaps Black Comedy needs its own repair effort. The page says it's a genre only to then say it's a supertrope to Gallows Humor which is not a genre and the way Black Comedy is used is more like a trope. And it's not clear whether the current Lolicon trope is distinct from that trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Jan 9th 2017 at 4:30:33 AM

Thing is, Japanese doesn't use their Lolicon jokes and characters as "black comedy".

And, well, lolicons in mainstream Japanese media are indeed harmless, but in the "darker depths", they're as repulsive as any pedophiles would be.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 9th 2017 at 5:04:44 AM

I don't really have a clue on how these things are portrayed in Japanese media so no comment on this aspect.

I do think tho' that this trope should be moved off to another title and a definition page created for the two terms. Or if the trope is more general than about -philias, make the general trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
pokedude10 from Texas, but that should be obvious. Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 9th 2017 at 1:41:46 PM

Hmm. I really dont' know what to do about this. Like Septimus, I have no idea about Japanese culture and how this concept fits into it. But, I also agree a rename needs to be carefully crafted so it doesn't appear the website is condoning pedophilia or the like.

I haven't had the time to read the last two TRS discussions, why are there no examples on the page, but wicks are allowed? If this is a sensitive trope with misuse and possible ramifications for advertisement, shouldn't this be in the Permanent Red Link Club?

Witty saying.
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Jan 9th 2017 at 1:48:23 PM

Examples were cut back in November 2009 by then admin Janitor "because not needed". Probably were causing issues, and the trope was different back then. As for advertisers, Google ads should be disabled there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Daefaroth Fnord from California Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Jan 9th 2017 at 8:24:39 PM

Not that I am even close to an expert on Japanese culture or anime, but conceptually I would say lolicon's closest western equivalent would be along the lines of lightheartedly teasing someone that they are just counting down the days to some child star's 18th birthday.

Not a perfect comparison but it gives you a rough idea of how it is looked at when played straight.

This signature says something else when you aren't looking at it.

Alternative Titles: Loliconalsoincludingshotacon
8th Feb '17 2:17:32 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
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