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What An Idiot cleanup

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I've mentioned this a few times before, but have never acted upon due to lack of support. I think that we need to cleanup our What an Idiot! pages.

The problem is how people here are defining idiocy. We have a few tropers here who are defining idiocy as a mistake in general. The problem is that everyone makes mistakes. Smart people make mistakes. Mistakes are not idiocy. For it to be idiotic, there needs to be a very clear and obvious choice. There isn't always a clear an obvious choice though,

I'm not putting this in the repair shop because I don't think that the trope itself needs fixing, but rather examples need to be removed. Remember that mistakes do not count as idiocy.

Note: Per TRS, What an Idiot! was moved to Darth Wiki and made Flame Bait, so the following needs to be done:

  • Examples must follow the "You'd expect"/"Instead" format.
  • Examples on non-Flame Bait pages (mainly YMMV subpages) should be moved to a What an Idiot! subpage if they follow the proper format, otherwise they should be deleted.
  • Inline wicks (such as potholes in examples for things other than What an Idiot!) should probably be deleted.

Here are the wicks for Main.What An Idiot, which was turned into a redirect until all remaining wicks use the DarthWiki/ namespace, after which the Main/ redirect is to be cut.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 29th 2022 at 3:03:49 AM

PacificGreen Since: Sep, 2014
#226: Oct 23rd 2021 at 12:06:42 PM

[up] Yeah, ZCEs should be commented out. Perhaps that troper is under the assumption that WAI just means "character is dumb" when it's more about characters making dumb decisions.

Any more thoughts on the MLP one above? To me it just seems like Fridge Logic combined with "characters fail to react in time to a sudden shift in the situation". Isn't characters in situations where they don't have enough time to think through their options misuse, like with the young children thing?

fragglelover Since: Jun, 2012
#227: Nov 6th 2021 at 5:18:15 AM

This is on Disney Animated Series as the only thing in a folder for Monsters at Work:

  • The pilot is all about Tylor trying to come to grips with how Monsters Inc. went from Scare Power to Laugh Power hen he gets a job at M.I. of being a maintenance worker, a job he has no interest in, especially considering that his co-workers aren't people he's excited to be around.
You'd Expect: For Tylor to try his luck at either Fear Co. or Scare Ind. since they're still operating on scream energy. Instead: He remains with M.I.

This is portrayed as a good thing in the work itself, and this example doesn’t even have a "The Result" section.

Edited by fragglelover on Nov 6th 2021 at 7:18:47 AM

Shadow8411 Since: Jul, 2019
#228: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:24:40 AM

That entry can be cut for not only being misuse, but for poor grammar as well.

"hen he gets a job at M.I. of being a maintenance worker"...wot?

callmeamuffin Just getting into Utena... (he/they) from the kitchen (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Thinkin' about you, muffin
Just getting into Utena... (he/they)
#229: Nov 15th 2021 at 8:25:35 PM

From YMMV.Million Dollar Money Drop.

  • What An Idiot: The couple that got the Post-It Notes question, who during a news interview about the mistake thought FOX was going to give them the $800,000 they lost, not realizing the final question had no research error and they got that wrong on their own, meaning they would have lost the $820,000 they were forced to bet anyway.

The Audience Reaction is No Real Life Examples, Please!. Is it crossing the line?

Edited by callmeamuffin on Nov 16th 2021 at 2:26:51 AM

Working on Sandbox.The Amazing Race TV Tropes Edition.
Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#230: Nov 15th 2021 at 8:58:38 PM

This example from YMMV.Yuri Is My Job bugs me

  • What An Idiot: In elementary school, Hime hears that her classmates are spreading rumors about Mitsuki having bullied Hime into doing the recital with her. She concludes, not unreasonably, that this will only get worse as long as she stays with Mitsuki.
    You'd Expect: That she'd talk this out with Mitsuki, so that even if there's no other choice than to leave, that Mitsuki would understand her intentions.
    Instead: Hime quits the recital and doesn't tell Mitsuki, who learns of Hime's decision from the music teacher. Mitsuki then overhears Hime talking with her friends, and concludes that Hime's decision was an intentional betrayal.

It bugs me for the simple reason that they were elementary school students, who aren't known for acting logically and talking things out, so calling this a what an idiot moment comes off as way too harsh

My troper wall
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#231: Nov 15th 2021 at 9:20:27 PM

Ugh, yeah I hate "examples" like those. Just torch it.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
callmeamuffin Just getting into Utena... (he/they) from the kitchen (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Thinkin' about you, muffin
Just getting into Utena... (he/they)
#232: Nov 19th 2021 at 1:18:06 PM

Reposting my post from a while ago on whether this example is valid or not:

From YMMV.Million Dollar Money Drop.

  • What An Idiot: The couple that got the Post-It Notes question, who during a news interview about the mistake thought FOX was going to give them the $800,000 they lost, not realizing the final question had no research error and they got that wrong on their own, meaning they would have lost the $820,000 they were forced to bet anyway.

The Audience Reaction is No Real Life Examples, Please!. Is it crossing the line?

Working on Sandbox.The Amazing Race TV Tropes Edition.
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#233: Nov 19th 2021 at 1:29:27 PM

WhatAnIdiot.Live Action TV lists lots of reality TV shows, including a sub-subpage just for game shows, so

actually on second thought, even if all that isn't an issue, this example seems to be talking about something that happened off the show, so we'd need to yeet it anyway.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
ablackraptor Since: Dec, 2010
#234: Nov 20th 2021 at 5:15:35 AM

From Tangled.

  • What An Idiot: Why did Rapunzel not run away immediately after she realized that she might be the lost princess, instead of telling Mother Gothel about her revelation?

Putting aside it's not formatted right, but Rapunzel was in the midst of a panic attack when she realised, and Gothel was walking in on her as she was still processing the realisation. She didn't "tell" Gothel about her realisation, she was mumbling in shock as Gothel prodded her to speak up.

It's definitely a poor framing of the context of the situation.

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#235: Nov 20th 2021 at 9:33:18 AM

[up][up][up] real people in a real situation, yup.

[up] Cut it.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#236: Dec 17th 2021 at 5:05:11 PM

What An Idiot is now in Trope Repair Shop. If you have any thoughts or proposed fixes this is the time and place to bring them up.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#237: Dec 20th 2021 at 6:33:25 PM

Please could I get some feedback on these two entries? I will bring the other entries on the page here as well, but these two need to be dealt with separately.

A couple of years ago, these two entries were removed from YMMV.RWBY and WhatAnIdiot.Web Original (RWBY) for misuse. A troper re-added them back to the WhatAnIdiot.Web Original page a little while later without edit reason and with a bit of extra padding, but without addressing the misuse issue. They were not re-added to the YMMV page.

I brought them to this thread (see post), but only got one response (cut both for being complaining and having several issues raised in-universe). The troper who added them back to the page without edit reason came to the thread (see post) objecting to both my comments and the other poster's comments. That troper and I had a debate here, but they didn't address the misuse issue I raised. There was no other feedback from the thread, so the discussion died without resolution.

So, I'm going to try and get this resolved now before bringing the other entries to this thread. I'll put each entry in its own folder, so it's easier for you guys to read it.

    Raven 
  • In Volume 5, Yang tracks down her estranged mother, bandit leader Raven Branwen, in order to use her mother's semblance to find Qrow, who's currently watching over Ruby. Raven however doesn't want Yang getting involved in the conflict between Ozpin and Salem, in which Qrow is a key player on Ozpin's side.
    You'd Expect: That Raven would figure out that Yang obviously cares about her little sister, and keep this in mind when trying to persuade her. At the very least, you'd think she wouldn't do the stuff mentioned below if she genuinely wanted to win Yang over.
    Instead: Raven tells Yang that Ruby is "a lost cause" if she's with Qrow, and tries to convince her to abandon Ruby. She does talk about Ozpin's duplicity as well as the Ozpin-Salem confict, but she consistently acts as though finding Ruby and staying out of it are mutually exclusive.
    Result: Raven's attempts at getting through to Yang by warning her about Qrow, Ozpin and Salem all fall on deaf ears, since Yang's sole concern is to find her sister, and she knows and trusts Qrow far more than she does Raven. Raven eventually just gives up and offers to portal Yang to Qrow and Ruby, while making clear that if Yang accepts, the two of them will be at loggerheads the next time they meet. Yang takes the offer, and after getting Qrow and Ozpin to confirm what Raven told her, she decides to stick with them to protect her sister, in exchange for them not keeping any more secrets.

The problem with this example is that it's completely ignoring Raven's characterisation in the show and wants her to be something she's not. She's well aware of the fact that Yang loves her sister Ruby, what she's doing is trying to manipulate Yang for her own reasons. However, she's selfish, a coward, loose with the truth, and gets called out for these traits by a couple of characters, most notably, Yang, during the Volume 5 climax — Raven ends up fleeing her own daughter in tears. So, the entry basically wants Raven to behave out-of-character and be something she's not.

It's also complaining about something that Raven's demonstrably correct about: we already know that helping Ruby and staying out of the conflict is mutually exclusive because the conflict is the show's plot driver and Ruby is The Hero who Jumped at the Call. Raven just has more knowledge about Ozpin and the conflict at this point than the audience does (we later learn she's right about a couple of other things, too).

    Ozpin 
  • In Volume 6, the heroes have retrieved the Relic of Knowledge, and plan to take it to their ally General Ironwood in Atlas. This is trickier than it sounds because the Relic draws Grimm to it, a fact Ozpin knows well.
    You'd Expect: Ozpin would warn the rest of the heroes of this, not just because they might want to modify their travel plans accordingly, but because he'd promised not to hide any more information from them.
    Instead: He says nothing, out of fear that knowledge of this fact would cause increased anxiety within the group, and lead to more risk of Grimm attacks.
    Result: In their ignorance, the heroes take the Relic onboard a packed public train, putting dozens - if not hundreds - of innocent people in danger when a massive horde of Grimm attack it, and meaning that Ozpin has to reveal the secret anyway, at the worst possible time. It also means that, when Ozpin tries to convince Ruby to give him the Relic, it comes after yet another bit of dishonesty from Ozpin, ultimately resulting in Ruby not co-operating and using the Relic to find out everything else Ozpin's hiding from them. The knowledge she and the others obtain, particularly the part about Salem supposedly being unbeatable, shatters the group's faith in Ozpin.

This entry is based in speculation. So, it creates a theory and then complains about the ramifications of the theory. It's also wrong about Ozpin promising not to keep secrets any more. What actually happened was that Yang said her staying on board depended on no more lies or half-truths. Ozpin's response was "Understood". While Yang took it as a promise, most fans saw it for the evasion it was.

In Volume 6, they carry the Relic to Atlas, where it can be properly protected. Ozpin takes them on a train which gets attacked by Grimm (the train has anti-Grimm defences and hires Huntsmen for such eventualities because it's a Death World full of monsters who are attracted to negative emotions and like killing people). The heroes decide to mask the emotions of the entire train to stop the Grimm from being able to sense the presence of humans. Hearing this, Ozpin reveals that the plan won't work because the Grimm will also be attracted by the Relic. The heroes modify the plan — half leave the train with the Relic, the rest mask the train from the Grimm.

The heroes confront Ozpin about the secrecy, and he states he was worried about the impact of increased anxiety and negative emotions and that the Relic's attraction is "faint but undeniable". To date, that's all we know. We don't know how strong the Relic's attraction is, whether Ozpin is implying that human emotions are stronger than Relic attraction, why he decided to get on the train in the first place, or even why the Grimm attacked the train in the first place.

The only thing we do know is that the Grimm do not appear to pay attention to the Relic (even during the train fight, they never single out the Relic-bearer, they just attack everyone equally). In Volumes 6-7, there are multiple occasions where Grimm are around the heroes when one is carrying the Relic, and the Grimm never single out the Relic-bearer. On one occasion, Ruby is even standing right next to a Grimm with the Relic on her belt, and the Grimm completely ignores her until she starts thinking about her friends' deaths — at which point, it immediately turns on her.

So, all fans can do is speculate.

The other problem with the entry is that it's expecting Ozpin to be OOC. Since the beginning of the show, he's been mysterious, secretive, and fearful of the consequences of people learning the truth. His secrecy issues are addressed in-universe; when he and the heroes eventually reconcile, it's because they've walked a mile in his shoes to discover just how hard it is to figure out who can be trusted with the truth, and because he has accepted that he's failed them.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 20th 2021 at 2:52:15 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#238: Dec 25th 2021 at 10:15:25 PM

There is now an active crowner for What An Idiot in TRS. Now's your chance to vote on how we deal with WAI.

This will effect how we cleanup this trope going forward.

SwimToTheMoon Since: Oct, 2013
#239: Dec 27th 2021 at 11:44:52 AM

This example from Letterkenny:

  • What An Idiot: In season 7, Daryl abruptly decides that he's going to go to Quebec to try to get his ex-girlfriend, Anik, back. They previously broke up after she cheated on him, and she openly stated that she didn't love or trust him.
    You'd Expect: Someone to point out or Daryl to realise that Anik doesn't want anything to do with him. She dumped him after cheating on him, she does not want to be with him. Going to Quebec is a lost cause. In addition, why would she want to get back with an ex who doesn't respect her choices by showing up randomly and refusing to leave?
    You'd Also Expect: That when Wayne and Squirrelly Dan decide to come to Daryl's aid, they'd try to defuse the situation by convincing Daryl to leave calmly. The Hiques are their friends and allies, they owe it to them to not start a fight.
    Instead: The Hicks all just tell Daryl repeatedly that he won't get any respect if he goes back to her, which does nothing to dissuade him; when Wayne and Dan get there, they just shrug and go along with Daryl instead of trying to talk some sense into him.
    As A Result: The Hicks and Hiques get into a pointless fight that in all probability destroyed their friendship for a reason that didn't even begin to resemble 'good'.

This example seems to miss that Daryl is an idiot (the entire context of the subplot to begin with), but it also just seems like Stealth Complaining. Also, I thought What An Idiot was meant for dramatic examples, not comedic examples where the idiocy is entirely intentional.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#240: Dec 27th 2021 at 12:02:38 PM

Since we're in TRS right now, you might not want to focus on examples because who knows how this trope will change soon?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#241: Jan 7th 2022 at 12:37:07 AM

Well, I suppose someone should make the first post.

The TRS decision is to move Main.What An Idiot to DarthWiki.What An Idiot and designate it Flame Bait. So, I guess we need to decide the best way we're going to clean WAI. My understanding is that we need to do the following:

  • Check current WAI examples are valid, and remove the ones that aren't.
  • Make sure the kept examples follow the "You'd Expect/Instead format, and rewrite to accommodate if necessary.
  • Remove entries/potholes/etc from the main site.

Issues we've come across already before any clean-up begins.

  • Tropers have started slashing and burning YMMV pages in response to the new Flame Bait tag. We might be losing legitimate examples as a result. Ideally, we should be checking that YMMV entries are listed on the WAI page (and valid) first before we remove them from YMMV pages.
  • Tropers starting to transfer YMMV entries (especially ones that have already been cut from the YMMV pages) to Idiot Ball, which means an audience reaction is being dumped into an objective trope without consultation. This may mean we need to double-check Idiot Ball doesn't need a (short-term) clean-up after the WAI clean-up is done.

So, I suppose the question is... how best do we approach the clean-up?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 7th 2022 at 8:43:17 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Infitroper Since: Oct, 2016
#242: Jan 7th 2022 at 7:23:21 AM

I suppose I can start by bringing this one up, from the YMMV page of How to Train Your Dragon 2:

What an Idiot!: Some felt that Hiccup was uncharacteristically stupid to repeatedly ignores warnings from his father and mother that Drago is a war-mongering madman who cannot be reasoned with, and still try to reason with him. His recklessness ends up costing Stoick his life. Others argue that the fact that he convinced his bull-headed father and his entire village to change in the span of the first movie would naturally lead him to be so optimistic. The television show attempts to explain this by showing that Hiccup managed to redeem and/or talk down nearly every single villain of the show (Alvin, Dagur, Mala, and Viggo respectively), despite many of them seeming well past the point of any redemption. With that level of success, of course he'd think trying his hand with Drago would be a viable option.

Obviously it isn't formatted correctly, on top of being rambly, and, I would argue, more fitting for Broken Base, or possibly Idiot Ball since it uses the word "uncharacteristically". What do you guys think? Does it fit one of those, or should it just be cut?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#243: Jan 7th 2022 at 10:46:00 AM

I deleted a cuple since it was F Lame Bait but now that I know I am supposed to move them I will do that.

But do this from YMMV.The Fugitive fit the format:

  • What An Idiot: When the police bring in Kimble for a statement after his wife's murder, the CPD who are watching the questioning check the forensics report and note his fingerprints are all over the lamp and his gun as though they were evidence of his guilt. Well NO DUH! They're his lamp and his gun in his own home!
    • Also, Gerard had a chance to catch Kimble off guard in Cook County Jail by sneaking on him quietly and apprehend him from behind. But no, he just shouts out his name out loud while he's not much far from him, which provoked another chase where he loses him yet again.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 7th 2022 at 12:46:36 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#244: Jan 7th 2022 at 11:13:37 AM

Nope. We're only trying to keep the ones that use the You'd Expect / Instead format.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#245: Jan 7th 2022 at 11:32:44 AM

Okay. All the others I found are moved. If I find anymore which fits the format, I will move them as well.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 7th 2022 at 1:48:45 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#246: Jan 7th 2022 at 11:36:27 AM

If you're able to rewrite some of them to use the format, that's also fine.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#247: Jan 7th 2022 at 11:49:35 AM

I can try to rewrite the above and any others I find as well. Just let me re-watch the above so I can properly do so.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 7th 2022 at 1:50:32 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Twentington Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Desperate
#248: Jan 7th 2022 at 7:56:22 PM

Thought I'd asked this before, but...

Should Game Show examples be purged? I fail to see how merely giving a wrong answer or making an error in gameplay is What An Idiot. And as it's happening in an unscripted context, would it not be No Real Life Examples, Please!?

Some of the examples on WhatAnIdiot.Jeopardy in particular seem way esoteric. I don't know a lot of that stuff either.

sohibil Since: Dec, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#249: Jan 8th 2022 at 3:22:39 AM

I remember putting an example on YMMV.Minami Kamakura High School Girls Cycling Club. It was about the heroine attempting to ride a bike with her legs spread wide and having no idea she actually has to pedal to get the bike moving. Now I noticed the page was cutnote  for a "zero context" reason. How is that zero context? If this YMMV is being purged couldn't the responsible person state the true reason?

What should be done about this now?

Edited by sohibil on Jan 8th 2022 at 12:38:44 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#250: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:06:18 AM

On the TRS thread, we were encouraged to think of improperly formatted examples like ZCEs if we couldn't figure out how to rewrite them. Do you remember how you wrote the example? And if possible, could you flesh it out in the You'd expect / Instead format and put it on the What An Idiot page?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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