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How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126: Aug 15th 2017 at 9:57:21 PM

That's not a solution for a video game. It would be a good thing for an actual simulator, but different mechanics for modifying the difficulties a specific power has interacting with specific regions of the world (and, because it's a sandbox, needing to do interactions in every direction for every region to do it justice) would quickly become a quicksand mess.

Which is why abstraction is a necessary evil for gameplay, and why it makes it difficult to balance things properly.

There's never going to be a mechanic that will properly model all of those problems, however, because all of those problems are separate. There are problems of distance, there are problems of disease, there are problems of how much adaptable local infrastructure there is, there are problems of how hostile the locals are and how many of them there are, etc, etc.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#127: Aug 15th 2017 at 9:59:21 PM

I've always thought of the Middle East as largely aprt of Asia (if also part of North Africa).

As for mechanics, I disagree that you need tons of different mechanics, simply simulating the way that diseases impacted armies from particular areas might be enough, that can be a universal mechanic with various regions having different diseases.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#128: Aug 15th 2017 at 10:02:17 PM

[up][up] So.... why bring them up when the question was one of modelling distance...?

[up] I always thought of it as part of Europe so far as history is concerned.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#129: Aug 15th 2017 at 10:03:39 PM

As for mechanics, I disagree that you need tons of different mechanics, simply simulating the way that diseases impacted armies from particular areas might be enough, that can be a universal mechanic with various regions having different diseases.

Might work up to a point, but you'd have to put in some sort of acquired immunity for people from the region; otherwise disease in Africa will kill all the Africans as well. And then there's the trickier problem of the Americas where the diseases that slowed European expansion in the jungles of Central America and Brazil were themselves imports from Europe and Africa that found the temperature there to their liking (yellow fever being a case in point).

So.... why bring them up when the question was one of modelling distance...?

Because the original comment I responded to was about how a distance mechanic that would properly defend Africa would make it impossible to reach Asia? And I was pointing out that there's no one mechanic, distance or otherwise that's going to get you the more or less appropriate results there?

edited 15th Aug '17 10:05:24 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130: Aug 15th 2017 at 10:10:46 PM

That's why I like the idea of using Vic 2's pop mechanic (or part of it), it would allow you to note where your troops came from and give them immunities or weaknesses, as for disease spread, that could simple be an event chain, not hard to implement.

You'd also have to model for historical weirdness, how would antivenin Americans deal with African diseases if they crossed the Atlantic before Europeans crossed to the Americas.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#131: Aug 15th 2017 at 11:07:23 PM

Since nobody wants to discuss the increasing prominence of Chinese nationalism in film, I may as well cross-post this from the Dunkirk thread as there's been a lot of discussion there and in the media regarding its relation to British nationalism's role in the Brexit movement. tongue

__

Dunkirk certainly came out in interesting times, to say the least. Funnily enough, I once wrote a paper that partially dealt with how World War II "factual mythology" played major roles in the development of many nations' sense of nationalism today, especially the British notion that the UK is a separate cultural entity from mainland Europe while Americans by and large consider British people to be just as "European" as the French and Germans.

Foreign Policy: Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

he most striking feature of Christopher Nolan’s wonderful movie Dunkirk is that very little is said. Rather, the movie carries the audience through the depiction of the bare human experience of the evacuation of Allied forces from the beaches of northern France as Hitler’s Wehrmacht closed in. Chaos. Fear. Duty. Despair. Relief. Survival. Sorrow. Pride.

Dunkirk also provides us with an insight into the cultural roots of Brexit, which rehearses the idea of a lost golden age before the United Kingdom joined the European Union — one strongly colored by the memory of World War II.

Dunkirk plays a key part in that memory. It marked the end of a catastrophic campaign in France, and the start of a dogged fight back. It gave us Churchill’s immortal words, exclaimed to the House of Commons on the final day of the Dunkirk evacuation on June 4, 1940: “We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.”

Nigel Farage, the king of Brexit, tweeted that he urged all young people to see Dunkirk. It is entirely fitting that younger Britons should act as the custodians of that memory, to be honored and passed on to the next generation. The summer of 1940, when Britain stood alone against Hitler, was indeed the country’s finest hour in modern times: Never was so much owed by so many to so few.

But the past has its proper place. History anchors identity, but should not consume it. Like the movie, there is always a risk that a recollection of memory so heavily rooted in emotive experience becomes detached from the story of what happened as a matter of fact: Like Orpheus, who descends into Hades attempting to bring his deceased wife Eurydice back to the world of the living, it is the desire to bring an idealized past back to life that tends to end in sorrow.

Take first Prime Minister Theresa May’s claim that leaving the EU will allow Britain to once again become a “great, global trading nation,” a call that harks back to the imperial world before 1945.

The historical reality was that for better or worse, World War II broke the British Empire, which was effectively mortgaged to pay for the vast costs of the conflict. The British Empire’s trade zone was broken by a series of sterling crises in the 1960s and the politics of decolonization. The big cargo ships had all but disappeared from London’s docks by the time the U.K. joined the EU’s predecessor, the European Economic Community in 1973.

The U.K. that joined the European institution was on its knees, requiring an International Monetary Fund bailout in 1976. Against Labour Party opposition, the Conservative government that brought Britain into the EEC did so on the basis of free trade. It was none other than Margaret Thatcher who pushed to open up the European single market in the 1980s.

In short, the EU was the answer to the collapse of Britain as a great trading empire, not its cause. The argument that the most deeply integrated free trade area in the world is holding back free trade is ridiculous — look no further than Germany’s huge success as an exporting nation.

But the promise of a return to a golden age is a powerful one, which trumps rational argument. Only in this way can the leaders of Brexit, who are now in government, make these obviously contradictory claims: that Brexit is about even more free trade (that is, more globalization), but that it is simultaneously about returning to a simpler world with fewer immigrants and less exposure to low-cost overseas trading competitors (that is, less globalization).

Singapore on the Thames in England’s green and pleasant land is a weird place, because it confuses the imperial and domestic dimensions of pre-1945 Britain. But that is the idyll to which the Brexiteers want to return, which neatly overlooks 1945 to 1973, years which weren’t so great.

Beyond trade, the memory of World War II evokes a sense of national unity, symbolized in the “Dunkirk spirit,” which can be taken to represent a cultural unity purportedly absent in modern Britain. This attitude is implicit in the claim that Brexit is about “stability” — as if 44 years of British EU membership has somehow disfigured an older and more genuine cultural stability that existed in pre-EU Britain.

This was not some peripheral part of May’s pitch to be prime minister but central to it, and it remains at the core of her government’s communication strategy. Thus, we hear over and over and over again that the government wants “stability,” and an “orderly” Brexit, without “disruption” for individuals or companies.

There is an epic contradiction here. Either Brexit will be the radical change its proponents said it would be, or it won’t. If it’s the former, it will be hugely disruptive to the existing state of affairs — that’s exactly the point! If it’s the latter, and the U.K. ends up in a sort of Norway model, in which it must follow EU rules with no say over them, there will be stability — but Brexit will simply have resulted in a unilateral relinquishing of power by the U.K. for no real change. One would wreak economic damage; the other would be politically unsustainable. Don’t ask me for the way out of this mess; I did not ask for this.

In any case, we are left with the supposed government of stability carrying out Brexit, which is no less ludicrous than if Robespierre had gone around Paris wearing an “I love stability” T-shirt. And be in no doubt: The people masquerading as “conservatives” now running the Tory party are revolutionaries who dismiss anyone who doubts the purity of their project as unpatriotic. They rely on the idea of a return to a golden age to give the impression that they are preserving some sort of deep status quo, some deep cultural stability, rather than radically smashing up the past 44 years of Britain’s relationship with the EU — which, for my money, has left the country better off than it was in 1973.

Ultimately, if the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win World War II to be run by Germany via Brussels. This is felt more by the older generation, who voted disproportionately for Brexit. It would be rebuked as xenophobic by many of us born well after 1945, including me, who voted disproportionately against Brexit; not to mention that this sentiment does not map onto the facts of how the EU actually works. But my generation did not survive Dunkirk, live through the Blitz, or experience the catharsis of victory in 1945.

edited 15th Aug '17 11:07:35 PM by FluffyMcChicken

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#132: Aug 16th 2017 at 11:47:02 AM

I'm wondering if Wisecracknote  or Rick and Morty might have some relevance to this topic?

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#133: Aug 16th 2017 at 9:54:32 PM

Also separate from the ongoing discussion but relevant to the thread: portrayals of homosexuality in Hollywood, or "how Brokeback Mountian was a breakthrough after years of both gain and loss"

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#134: Aug 17th 2017 at 12:21:27 PM

[up][up]If you believe they do, Throw It In.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#135: Aug 17th 2017 at 12:59:16 PM

[up] Okay, I'm gonna start with their Spider man video and one of their R&M videos. I find the former to have a rather...patriotic interpretation however.

They also have three other series. One that dabbles into Philosophical concepts themselves called 8-Bit Philosophy that is seemingly discontinued, one that focuses on the hidden meanings of films exclusively called Earthling Cinema, and one that focuses the hidden meanings of on literature called "Thug Notes" which might had been the original content before branching out into the other.

I wanted to bring this up in order to ask if the people that interpretative and analyze philosophy in fiction themselves are influenced and biased by the zeitgeist and politics.

edited 17th Aug '17 1:26:44 PM by MorningStar1337

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#136: Aug 18th 2017 at 8:50:32 AM

[up] 8 bit Philosophy had one of the worst despictions of utilitarianism that I have seen. Is not, do whatever you want, in fact, Utilitarianism might be the benevolent Lawful Neutral philosophy taken to a face value.

And the end was funny, but not in the way who the author intended. But still, go, guys, Deontologists and Utilitarians should unite to beat those relativists. Unironically.

Just saying

edited 18th Aug '17 8:52:31 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#137: Aug 18th 2017 at 9:05:09 AM

Given who we are talking about how fiction affects or represent politics, I always have find funny the SMT franchise in that regard.

The franchise is, when you look carefully to it, always blaming collectivism for the problems of the world, Persona 5 is just a ultimate externalization of that idea who is expressed in more subtle ways in the diverse games of the franchise.

The authors are self defined punks, so is not a surprise at all. And they come from Japan where there few respects from the individual per se.

The presentation of the Law aligment on the series is something who express the ideas of the franchise very well, Law is mean to be the most dubious aspects of collectivism represented, but they are also show as western and thus distasteful for the Japanese audience.

Albeit, Law brand of collectivism is a western/christian one, while Japanese collectivism is confusian one. But still, the writers do not like collectivism

Even when they warn against extreme Individualism, this is not because they realize who extreme selfishness can be harmful, but rather than extreme Individualism lead to Hierarchies, who lead to collectivism.

This pic with some of the villains (and clean cut heroes) of the franchise might define it. [1]

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#138: Aug 18th 2017 at 10:06:44 AM

"Brexit is about even more free trade (that is, more globalization), but that it is simultaneously about returning to a simpler world with fewer immigrants and less exposure to low-cost overseas trading competitors (that is, less globalization)."

In short: we want all the free trade and political power of globalization while I dont want inmigrants for those place it.

"I want to change but the world must remaind the same.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#139: Aug 18th 2017 at 2:51:21 PM

[up] It's that whole "have their cake and eat it" mentality. They still haven't realized that this is not going to happen.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#140: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:14:21 PM

[up] Donald Tusk had a pretty good thing to say about the having of cakes and eating thereof. tongue

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#141: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:48:45 PM

[up] I'm gonna assume that this Donald Tusk is a inter-dimensional traveler who is a version of Donald Trump from the World of Barbar?tongue

On-topic, I wonder how does series like House of Cards (or Cory in the House) factor into this? What do series involving politicians have to say about the creators behind them?

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#142: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:53:59 PM

[up] Donald Tusk is the current President of the European Council and he had this to say about the whole cake thing:

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#143: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:54:02 PM

[up][up]They're referring to this, but your idea is amusing too tongue

Edit: Damn [nja]

edited 18th Aug '17 3:54:22 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#144: Sep 8th 2017 at 8:46:52 AM

[up] The Salt and vinegar line wasn't really thought through considering how much the Brits like both.

So...continuing the discussion from the Diversity thread about the measure of fascism in current media and what it says about our society.

Here is a vid which I liked there, about how changes in German society between the World Wars were reflected in the movies during that period: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE

And the initial reason we ended up with the discussion in the first place was the observation that the philosophy in The Dark Knight is very uncomfortable indeed once you think about it.

Please, pleaaaaase don't make this into another DC vs Marvel thing by going all "but Marvel does too". If there is a movie you consider relevant for this kind of discussion, feel free to mention it, but not in the context of another dick measuring contest. This topic is too serious to make it about fanboy gripes. But there is no doubt that movies like The Dark Knight resonate with the audience, and maybe it is time to question what the current slew of blockbusters say about us.

edited 8th Sep '17 8:48:01 AM by Swanpride

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#145: Sep 8th 2017 at 8:57:24 AM

[up] Yeah, the whole Dark Knight trilogy does kind of veer off into an authoritarian direction. This is why I don't like it when Batman stories get too political. Though usually when that happens the stories veer off into a lolbertarian direction instead.

It's the idea of the strong man. It helps to sell superhero stories and propel populists like Trump into power. Shit, Duterte — another so-called strongman — has even compared himself to the frikkin' Punisher.

edited 8th Sep '17 9:03:10 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#146: Sep 8th 2017 at 9:05:33 AM

[up] It's not just the Dark Knight, though, is it? I mean it is no secret that the American military is sponsoring certain movies and shows (Transformers, Man of Steel, NCIS) which are supposed to shine a positive light on American militarism. And a number of movies and TV shows have this underlying narrative that the ones who are physically powerful or otherwise "badass" have the right to do whatever they want.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#147: Sep 8th 2017 at 9:07:52 AM

[up] Yep. Strong Man mentality.

This was apparent with 24 too. The late Antonin Scalia — a Supreme Court Justice — even cited Jack Bauer's triumphs as justification for torture.

edited 8th Sep '17 9:08:20 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#148: Sep 8th 2017 at 9:22:40 AM

The Punisher is a great example of how pop culture influences life, and how the people who say feminist and social justice critiques are worthless just have a shallow understanding of reality. I've been a comics fan for about ten years now and I remember back during the Iraq War some soldiers put the Punisher's logo on their gear.

And of course what [up] said about Scalia and 24.

Also while I'm not exactly the biggest buff on this subject, I've heard the anti-capitalist cyberpunk of the 80s was replaced by a hardcore right-wing military sci-fi in the 90s.

That all being said, a free society demands free expression. You can't stop a piece of fiction, even if it is pro-authoritarian to a ridiculous degree. I'm glad for that because, I won't lie, I enjoy stories like that if they're done well. Fiction is about indulging fantasies after all.

Also I still maintain that Mass Effect 1 is ridiculously pro-military. Its depiction of the military as the only sane ones, and politicians as weak and stupid, irritated me throughout the entire playthrough.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#149: Sep 8th 2017 at 9:28:58 AM

[up]

Also while I'm not exactly the biggest buff on this subject, I've heard the anti-capitalist cyberpunk of the 80s was replaced by a hardcore right-wing military sci-fi in the 90s.

And before the eighties, nearly every seventies sci-fi movie was a dystopian anti-corporatist depressing downer.

edited 8th Sep '17 9:30:56 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#150: Sep 8th 2017 at 9:33:42 AM

Also I still maintain that Mass Effect 1 is ridiculously pro-military. Its depiction of the military as the only sane ones, and politicians as weak and stupid, irritated me throughout the entire playthrough.
I don't see anything ridiculous about it, the series was about fighting robotic Eldritch Abominations and their various proxies. Who else but the military would be able to deal with that?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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