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How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#11901: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:26:58 PM

I always thought there were decent people in every House. Just as you could find jerks in them.

The Slytherin we got to know and loathe got a little overrun with pricks thanks to what was going on around them, more than anything else.

And, too many pricks mean the non-jerks either get bullied into being almost as bad... or pretend to be. Which from outside, looks like the lot being premium dickheads.

Think about Percy for a minute: he was ambitious on top of being passionately stubborn. The latter won out over the former when being sorted... probably because the Sorting Hat could work out exactly what would happen to a Weasley surrounded by the ambitious (or just unlucky) kids of Death Eaters... who in turn knew damned well what their parents would do to them if they landed in Hufflepuff, so most would beg the Hat to wind up on Team Snake to avoid "fun" family-Black-like times at home.

There was no other real place for simple ambition and drive to rise safely in, what with Voldemort and his Death Eater "friends" sticking their oars in. With the possible exception of Ravenclaw. And, Percy wasn't really cut out for Ravenclaw.

So, Mr Ambitious-Yet-Dull-and-Bureaucratic... tried to rise in the Minstery. And, we all know how great an idea that was. (Poor sod. And, that was another can of outside influence worms.)

Now, imagine if Draco could have been selected for Gryffindor as an alternative (and, I think he otherwise could have been — you can say many things about Draco, but he's not actually a quitter, and he could be passionate about his beliefs). He would have turned that down flat... if only because he'd have to face his dad, but he'd also have had to face the kids of people his dad had terrorised. Which would not go well.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:32:58 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#11902: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:27:54 PM

They're not automatically praiseworthy concepts either. Harry IS a Guile Hero and extremely cunning.

He just uses it for helping others.

But yes, I don't think the system is supposed to work well as we've seen it's produced a shitty aristocracy over a powderkeg of class relations.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 16th 2018 at 5:30:17 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#11903: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:28:00 PM

It's sort of the Hanlon's Razor of writing, but I don't think you should ever assume deep commentary when lazy worldbuilding is far more likely.

The Harry Potter books work great when you don't really think about them too much. Rowling has a deft touch with the characters, there's some real emotion at parts, and the way the scenes are built is very vivid. Once you start asking what rules magic plays by, how Quidditch works or why Slytherin exists you've stepped outside her writing talents into uncharted territory.

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11904: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:31:25 PM

You know. HP actually motivated me to try to write heroism is other ways. Like, avoiding tropes of Bravery in my heroes. Is less strong now that I have grew up from my edgy phase of SUBVERT EVERYTHING (Kazuya' feeling about it )but is still somewhat there.

Like, instead of fighting the enemy, faking surrender before hand-holding (..lewd) the person in danger and running away with them. It helps that I have personal experiences of basically trying to help people without risking my own safety.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 16th 2018 at 7:32:10 AM

Watch me destroying my country
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#11905: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:31:28 PM

I think part of the issue is a lot of people are expecting the fact it's a fundamentally "silly" world and deliberately obviously so to make 100% accurate sense is a bit of a problem. It's a world which begins under Pratchett rules and slowly becomes more serious but not completely.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#11906: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:35:15 PM

They're not automatically praiseworthy concepts either. Harry IS a Guile Hero and extremely cunning.

He just uses it for helping others.

Sure but that's my point, I don't mind evil ambitious or cunning people but when the House that's literally supposed to represent them are all evil then you've got a major problem.

My ideal Slytherin house would have character beyond "prejudiced rich douches" and would actually involve some nuance. You could have the kind of ambitious people who want to change the world for the better, you could have the ruthless kind of ambitious people who justify atrocity and paternalism under the mantra of "the Greater Good" (a la Grindelwald), you could have the ambitious people who are just prejudiced aristocrats like canon Slytherin.

Just anything that wasn't canon Slytherin, yes we shouldn't whitewash ambition or cunning but demonizing them is comparably bad.

The Harry Potter books work great when you don't really think about them too much. Rowling has a deft touch with the characters, there's some real emotion at parts, and the way the scenes are built is very vivid. Once you start asking what rules magic plays by, how Quidditch works or why Slytherin exists you've stepped outside her writing talents into uncharted territory.

Exactly this, I love Harry Potter but we shouldn't rationalize away its flaws.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 16th 2018 at 8:35:54 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#11907: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:36:31 PM

[up][up] The HP universe exists 100% in service of the plot and main cast. It isn't consistent and bends into any shape needed. Magic works however it needs to for the story to move forward, Quidditch plays a certain way so Harry can have a starring role, and there's a dedicated house for villains so we can get some good old YA conflict.

[up] Frankly I'm not sure it's a flaw. Rowling is a brilliant writer, shes's just not an overly technical one. I wouldn't expect emotional character moments or scene setting from a rivet-counting sci-fi author (and I do love books like that for the record) and I wouldn't go into either book expecting the other thing.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 16th 2018 at 5:38:23 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#11908: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:46:21 PM

Frankly I'm not sure it's a flaw. Rowling is a brilliant writer, shes's just not an overly technical one. I wouldn't expect emotional character moments or scene setting from a rivet-counting sci-fi author (and I do love books like that for the record) and I wouldn't go into either book expecting the other thing.

Hmm... that's an interesting point.

Perhaps weakness might be a better term, it's not something that makes Harry Potter necessarily lesser but it is where the story is weak.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#11909: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:47:38 PM

Well, it also depends on what we mean by "flaw". Like, no story's perfect, after all. The question is if more technical world-building would improve Harry Potter. I actually would probably argue "yes", but even then that doesn't mean it needs it.

Leviticus 19:34
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#11910: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:57:31 PM

Honestly, I’d argue the opposite. I think technical worldbuilding would take away a lot of the charm. Even if it’s not very technical, the way the world is crafted is very intricate and I don’t think it would work as well with a focus on background consistency.

I do agree that it’s definitely an area of deficiency, but I don’t expect every book to be everything. I just enjoy a book like that in a different way than I’d enjoy a book with ultra-precise and technical worldbuilding.

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11911: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:58:24 PM

It depends a lot of the type of the story and what are you are searching.

Watch me destroying my country
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11912: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:05:56 PM

So. After this talk, I did the obvious and went to Pottermore to do their official Sorting test.

So, well. Literally the Hufflepuff House. I am really that bland. And I am not really ashamed of it.

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#11913: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:42:13 PM

I remenber mark from Markreview Stuff saying that british stuff tend to just said things or add just because, usually letting a sense of wonder to dominate everything, while american need a sense to be explain everything.

Is pretty much how it works, HP is a quirky magic system, or a techincal one to satisface the need of nerd, nickpers and tropersevil grin.

And I find were the need to give naunce to Syletherin when we give none to similar groups for the very same reason, I mean in america context they will be alt righters.

Hell I can imagine they saying voldermot did nothing wrong how dumbledore protect (those) interest...you know the drill.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#11914: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:20:44 PM

I sort of agree that less is more in terms of worldbuilding with Harry Potter — it's not that I believe it adds to the charm or anything; in fact, I find that line of argument nonsense. A lack of worldbuilding in a fantasy universe is a deficiency, but it's a lesser evil than the worldbuilding we do get — idiocy like house-elf slavery being okay so long as you're a kind master, like the caricature Magical Native American theme of Ilvermorny, like the Ministry of Magic and other "adult" organizations being one-dimensional cartoons rather than fully realized, three-dimensional people, the weird focus that the West Country of England gets in the lore, every wizarding school being a British style boarding school — including the American one, in a country where public education of some kind stretched back to colonial times. That's not to mention the elements that come off as Trumpist propaganda today: the mainstream media being British Pravda and the "real news" being in a conspiracy therorist's rag, the government and the society it leads being useless and the lone hero being right about everything, the disdain for academics and history in particular, etc. The worldbuilding in Harry Potter is a mile wide, an inch deep.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#11915: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:40:41 PM

[up] I don’t know if I agree with the assertion that technical worldbuilding is always a benefit. In a character-focused story you don’t want worldbuilding getting in the way, it can be helpful to work backwards or break consistency to facilitate compelling character arcs.

It really depends on the type of story you’re writing.

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11916: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:42:18 PM

There was a time when people wished J.K. Rowling would write more Harry Potter stuff and explain more things about the background.

Be Careful What You Wish For, I guess.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#11917: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:45:05 PM

Not that it applies to Harry Potter (that we know of), but what do you think of "improvisational" worldbuilding? Essentially, creating rules and such as you go along/they become relevant?

Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:45:23 AM

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11918: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:50:29 PM

Not recommended. Especially if you're planning to write a whole fantasy or sci-fi series.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#11919: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:53:54 PM

What if you make sure to keep them consistent after they're introduced? A rule is established and made sure not to clash egregiously with what's already known, and remains the same barring unusual (i.e. Beyond the Impossible) circumstances for the rest of the work/series?

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:01:55 AM

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11920: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:15:46 PM

[up]It's much easier to do that if you have an outline ahead of time.

And if you're improvising you'll face the temptation of including something anyway for the sake of the story even if it flies in the face of something you wrote before.

Creativity often needs boundaries.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#11921: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:16:21 PM

It is certainly possible, but not all writers are capable of worldbuilding much less on the fly worldbuilding. When it does work out, I'm guessing that at least some of the times it is more like the writer decided to take something established already and build upon that.

Partial [nja]

Edited by Kakuzan on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:16:59 AM

Don't catch you slippin' now.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#11922: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:33:20 PM

Worldbuilding says more, in my opinion, about the author than it does about the work. So, when JKR is constructing an international community that retains many of the trappings of the Merry England sort of existence, that employs a lot of stereotypes in defining the cultures, that populates a lot of the lore with events happening in places right near her childhood hometown, that awkwardly and incompetently discusses things like government, class, and slavery, the only conclusion is that she's reached farther than she can grasp and that she isn't a very complex thinker, but is asked to do complex work.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:33:50 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#11923: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:33:31 PM

Slytherin's core values are ambition, cunning, and purity of blood. That last one pretty firmly taints the stew. Dude was all about the racism and he built that racism into his House. It only stands to reason that when your training camps are divided into:

  • Heroic archetypes
  • Super geniuses
  • Faithful trustees
  • Hitler Youth

One of these is going to produce more problem people than the others. Salazar Slytherin was a terrible person whose House should be torn down like a Confederate Statue and something else should be put in its place. Maybe something like House Fred, which accepts all the happy-go-lucky jokers.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 16th 2018 at 9:35:08 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11924: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:40:31 PM

I'm wondering about Fantasy Counterparts. I'm usually joking about a idea of Imperial Chinese Elves (saw a pic of a Chinese Emperor with elf earns and I thought it was badass) and while I genuinely would like see that, I'm increasingly aware that is something that should be done very carefully. I put them as the Resilient Ally and secondary characters (there many asian humans, trust me, racial diversity is my top goal), staying Out of Focus except when being The Cavalry (and when The Alliance is The Cavalry to then. Alliaces, even reclutant ones, are Alliances).

I am sure that I can pull a story with them as protagonists, but damn that I would need 1) Read a lot of Imperial Chinese history to get its nuances, 2) Get some chinese people to call me out when I'm doing something racist.

[up] House Fred is literally Hufflepuff tho.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:42:26 AM

Watch me destroying my country
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#11925: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:41:49 PM

[up][up]Most of Slytherin's image tends to be Common Knowledge: they're only cunning insofar as they are talented bootlickers and can seize an opportunity effectively, but like 99% of the time, they're violent thugs and/or idiots.

[up]Not a fan of non-humans having a coating of Orientalist cultural flavoring, or for that matter, any real-world national representation. If you're going to do Fantasy Counterpart Culture factions, just make them all human, I say. Dragon Age laid it on thick trying to make elves fantasy Jews, and it was always cringe-worthy.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:44:19 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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