How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

Maybe it’s just because I haven’t really seen or read any Marvel stuff other than the MCU, but I thought the movies were pretty clear on HYDRA being straight-up Nazis? It never really came across like they were their own thing, especially not ideologically.

Nope. The MCU treats HYDRA at first as an offshoot of the Nazis who disavow Nazi beliefs of the Aryan ideal. Then Agents of Shield (which also takes place in the MCU setting) revealed that the organization has its roots in worship of an ancient Inhuman called Hive.

Here's the MCU wiki's page on it.

The iconic HYDRA symbol is actually based on Hive's face.

Edited by M84 on Oct 12th 2018 at 7:21:05 PM

Even in the MCU, Hydra being Nazis is iffy because the Red Skull broke away and then Hydra was recreated by Arnim Zola.

Nazi offshoot? Yes.

However, very much of the Ghostoppo sort of type.

Interesting. Having never seen Agents of SHIELD, I wouldn’t have known that at all. To a casual moviegoer HYDRA is likely more or less indistinguishable from the Nazis.

The “read between the lines” there is that it sort of makes it seem like they have the same goals as the Nazis.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 12th 2018 at 4:24:04 AM

It's less ambiguous in Marvel comics since the Red Skull, the most prominent face (so to speak) of HYDRA, is a hardcore Nazi. He has, at various points, said genuinely bigoted things like making disparaging remarks about Wanda Maximoff's (Scarlet Witch) Romani heritage.

Comic Red Skull's entire origin story was that Hitler made a random hotel bellhop into the "ultimate" Nazi out of frustration with his officers. Not that Schmidt was a decent person even before that — he once murdered a Jewish girl in his youth because she turned down his creepy advances and he later got off on it. Comic Red Skull is a bigoted, hateful, sadistic bully.

Edited by M84 on Oct 12th 2018 at 7:30:28 PM

Having never read any of the comics or seen anything else, when I watched the movies HYDRA read like a Nazi CIA, again with the implication that they pretty much had the same goals as the Nazis.

I’m assuming the Nazi stuff is toned down in the MCU to sell movies, but it seems like an odd choice.

Yes, the Red Skull briefly became an anarchist because they wanted to move from Nazism.

No one bought it.

Also, anarchists were offended.

They tone it down to more "generic" authoritarianism.

Edited by M84 on Oct 12th 2018 at 7:31:30 PM

Mind you, it's not like Nazis have ever been the be end all of fascism.

Mussolini: I created it! Why no one reminds me!! I know that I didn't performed by best in WW-2 but I gave ideas to Adolf!!

In the Framework, they have taken over the government, run checks on people, kill undesirable and actively hunt Inhumans while sprouting Trump lines.

The message is very obvious there.

There is some leeway regarding Hydra, it can basically be used on whatever authoritarian movement is "current". But the MCU is VERY clear about Hydra (again, sprouting Trump lines) being Nazis. Meaning that they have characters reminding characters that this is what they are and that one shouldn't get distracted from this fact.

And I approve.

Well in Agents of SHIELD it discusses this a bit. On one hand it sorta retcons HYDRA's origins to be an ancient cult way older than the Nazis that went public when it allied with the Nazis.

On the other hand, it also tends to flat out stat that they should be considered Nazis anyways. IE: "Are HYDRA really Nazis?" "Yes, every last one of them". It does help that most HYDRA agents aren't aware of the organization's pre-Nazi origins either.

Or another conversation, albeit one before the HYDRA's true origins were revealed: Skye tells a HYDRA agent that they're a Nazi, to which the HYDRA agent gets all defensive and is like "I'm not a Nazi!" to which Skye responds "Yes you are! Red Skull was a big fat Nazi!"

If you buy the Captain America: The Winter Soldier tie-in comic the Red Skull actually reveals the MCU version isn't a Nazi.

Basically, he reveals he knows the entirety of eugenics is junk science because he's read Erskine's work and also discovered that real honest-to-God viking aliens exist. However, he's using Hitler to build himself up from being a eccentric polymath with a love of mythology and engineering.

Erskine says the fact he doesn't believe in Hitler but goes along with him for power actually makes him worse.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelmovies/images/2/26/Tumblr_lo8nd5B0gj1qzzn37o1_500.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120628031926&format=original

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 12th 2018 at 8:28:18 AM

Writing Nazis. I actually wrote something that few people care and I think needs more attention. Even thought my story is.set in a alternate WW 2 and following the Ambar' bellisarium (if you do a story set in WW 2. The villains should be from the Axis).

A Itallian Fascist that moved to the Nazis and a Tarkin' expy. Lead the Italian assaults in Abyssinia with notable cruelty even by Axis standard and due to the Divergence point was allowed to come back to Germany and join with the Nazis (like many Italian Fascists IRL).

In the same comic Steve's mother dies when he is a child, so, yeah, those things don't really work particularly well as canon.

So. Uh.

How evil was the, eh, Fire Nation?. The show really got it's way to avoid censors at showing them being evil invaders

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 14th 2018 at 11:08:36 AM

Considering they're imperialists, and that they killed an entire nation? I'd say at least the leaders (Zuko aside) are pretty evil.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Oct 14th 2018 at 9:15:23 AM

"Mussolini: I created it! Why no one reminds me!! I know that I didn't performed by best in WW-2 but I gave ideas to Adolf!!"

Jusr to show that whatever you do, the german can do better....even if adolt wasnt german

And the fire nation are imperial japan, you can do the math....granted, the genocide they commit is against air bender, which being the tibet allow the imperial chine expy(china) to go scot free.

The modern day Chinese don't try to kept themselves separated from the Imperial days? Not totally (impossible unless you go Full Mao and they already went for a literally literally Mao phase and it wasn't enough). China and the Tibet having a looong story.

Also. I remember a criticism towards the worldbuilding of Avatar is that the Airbenders were extremely close to a Mary Suetopia, whose issues are caused for clash with the exterior or minor compared to other nations (including the sympathetic Water tribes and Earth kingdon)

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 14th 2018 at 11:37:20 AM

The Fire Nation's wonderful deeds include:

• Committing genocide against the Air Nomads.

• Hunting the dragons, some of whom were shown to be intelligent species, into near extinction for sport and glory.

• Actively attacking other cultures and publicly describing them as inferior.

• Teaching false and propagandized versions of history to school children.

• Making their civilian population subservient to their military.

• Encouraging generals to treat rookie soldiers as canon fodder.

• Outlawing dancing.

On an individual level, you've got what Ozai did to Zuko and Azula's cultural appropriation.

That's not cultural appropriation. Its standard infiltration and espionage; that kind that can get you shot out of hand IRL.

I'm going to be honest, mentioning cultural appropriation is kind of silly when it follows all of those war crimes and crimes against humanity. Sort of an Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking situation.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 14th 2018 at 1:14:57 PM

Mass Murder, Slavery and using dresses

Though it shows that the Fire Nation are rotten even thought individual levels.

Yeah that is not cultural apropiation, it just plain on spionage, which is bad but it have is own reason for it.

I would say it's more special operations, they aren't dressing as the enemy to gather intelligence they're doing it to engage in targeted assassination and sabotage. Which may not be strictly kosher legally but everyone does it so I'm not really going to hold that against the Fire Nation.