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How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4776: May 30th 2018 at 7:09:17 AM

I'm fairly sure Europe's right aren't about to privatize prisons, medical coverage, or space travel.

I.e. The OCP 3.

They aren't also pro-guns, death penalty, or stunningly corporatist

So yes, the European Right is much much further left than America's.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4777: May 30th 2018 at 7:11:22 AM

I always Left Wing used as synonimous with Socially Advanced. How true is that?

Perhaps ironically, Star Trek, despite me being an ardent conservative.

Also, I don't see any contradiction between liking Star Trek and being Conservative.

edited 30th May '18 7:13:39 AM by KazuyaProta

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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#4778: May 30th 2018 at 7:14:54 AM

I'm honestly not sure how much more liberal Europe really is compared to the United States. It's a diverse place — if you tell me Belarus is more liberal than America, you need to be slapped, for instance. There's certainly an argument to be made that we're prude in a way that, for example, France isn't, but these Western European nations, in my opinion, buy a little too much into their own hype about being progressive. There are North Africans living in appalling conditions in Marseilles, and in England, in a policy worthy of ICE, government agents burn immigration documents and harass black people into repatriating themselves to the Caribbean nations they left to rebuild a ruined postwar Britain. In Germany, Austria, and Italy, white nationalist parties are at the gates, in Spain, the Catalan separatist issue is being handled with unimaginative and tyrannical blundering. If anything has been made clear in the past few years, it's that Europe is no better and needs to get off its high horse vis-a-vis the United States regarding the progressivism dick measuring contest.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4779: May 30th 2018 at 7:15:06 AM

[up][up]Well I doubt right-wing people would agree with that, frankly that sounds like a definition used in commonly left-wing spaces.

And of course the problem is how exactly do we measure "social advancement"? Real Life isn't Civilization where you can check your culture points and advance your social policies, that term seems inherently subjective and relative (though I'm imagine you won't like me bringing up the dreaded r-word tongue).

[up]Well said. [awesome]

edited 30th May '18 7:15:59 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4780: May 30th 2018 at 7:18:47 AM

Cultural Relativism is the rule on academia. Moral relativism is what get you mocked

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4781: May 30th 2018 at 7:20:50 AM

[up]Yes I know, I was mostly joking.

Still I have to wonder where the line between cultural and moral relativism is drawn, culture intrinsically influences morality and ethics after-all.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4782: May 30th 2018 at 7:24:02 AM

For starters, there a difference between saying "all cultures have different morals but some moralities are better than others" and saying "brown people is inherently more regressive and need to be controlled for white progressive goverments"

Morality might be defined for culture. But moral facts are beyond them

edited 30th May '18 7:26:10 AM by KazuyaProta

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archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#4783: May 30th 2018 at 7:27:31 AM

As far as I know, descriptive and meta-ethical relativism are pretty broadly accepted because they don’t go as far as saying we should tolerate behavior we find immoral.

Objective morality has always seemed a little weak to me, I don’t think there’s a case for morals existing outside what’s been constructed by humans.

edited 30th May '18 7:29:14 AM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4784: May 30th 2018 at 7:29:20 AM

[up] Meta ethical relativism isn't exactly what pop culture thinks when they say Relativism. And while accepted, is still quite far from universal.

Also, even if morality is a moral construct that exist only because humans exist, then morality still exist. Ideas still exist anyway.

There also a difference between Mind Independent moral realism and Universalist Moral Realism

[down] Nah. Pop Culture relativism isn't "nothing matter you're free to kil everything" neither. It used to be but now is just used for a vague existencialist "you create your own values,"

Also. The idea that Relativism is intellectual in fiction needs to die. A lot of stories think that having a character being a relativist means that they are smart.

edited 30th May '18 7:40:12 AM by KazuyaProta

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4785: May 30th 2018 at 7:31:09 AM

[up][up]For what it's worth that is the limit to my relativism, just because I don't believe in objective or universal morality does not mean I reject the concept of moral values or opposing those that are anathema to your own.

Ethics are extremely useful to society and thus should be encouraged socially, whether they objectively exist or not is not something that I especially care about one way or another.

[up]Wait... I don't believe anyone here has been arguing for pop-culture relativism. Frankly I think it would be rather telling if you think we have been.

edited 30th May '18 7:32:29 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4786: May 30th 2018 at 7:37:59 AM

To come back to politics...seriously, how liking Star Trek is contradictory with being Conservative.

I don't think that Conservatives believe that we're should stay in our age and stop all technological development.

edited 30th May '18 7:38:54 AM by KazuyaProta

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4787: May 30th 2018 at 7:40:23 AM

There's certainly an argument to be made that we're prude in a way that, for example, France isn't, but these Western European nations, in my opinion, buy a little too much into their own hype about being progressive.

I'd add to this that, according to several different French people I've gotten into fights with online North American "prudishness" includes such terrible things as "not letting adults bone teenagers." More than once I've had to suffer through arguments in favour of sexual predation dressed up in liberal or progressive rhetoric, and grounded on "well if it's against the law in America that must be because of conservative religious morality."

Not everything Europeans do is enlightened and progressive.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4788: May 30th 2018 at 7:44:53 AM

[up] You're using Progressive as synonimous with morally good there, right?

And yeah, those guys seems like a lovely bunch

[down][down] Then you're confirming my view that Progressivism is inherently good.

[down] And that's where you're wrong. Most philosophers and ethicists agree that moral facts exist, even if they're Mind dependent (and most of them agree that their universal even if they're)

edited 30th May '18 8:02:55 AM by KazuyaProta

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archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#4789: May 30th 2018 at 7:52:23 AM

[up]x5 They exist, but by their nature they’re inherently subjective. Morals aren’t like scientific facts that exist outside of our conception of them.

We can only be moral by our current standards.

edited 30th May '18 7:53:23 AM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4790: May 30th 2018 at 7:52:28 AM

Not this again, progressive means forward thinking and liberty granting, there’s nothing forward thinking or liberty granting about allowing a powerful group (adults) to abuse a group with less power (children).

There are certainly parts of the US that are better when it comes to things than parts of Europe, France doesn’t take sexual assault seriously, Ireland only just lifted its constructional ban on abortion, the UK has young earth creationists contorting the fate of the government, Spain has heresy laws, ect...

edited 30th May '18 7:53:18 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#4791: May 30th 2018 at 8:03:58 AM

As we know, the traditional academic theory used to be that of a hierarchy between human identity groups, including culturally, with ours always at the top, yours a very distant second (and generous are we!)
And then we would fight it out about whose theory was right for that is the trial of truth (it isn’t?)
Then we got better, somewhat. Because World War I, World War II, and then some.

It’s now assumed that some ideas can be considered better than others and some ideas are more common is some cultures than in others, though to assume that some cultures have a monopoly on good ideas would join the traditional theory.

My own opinion is that while some ideas and opinions are better than others, my holding better ideas than you doesn’t necessarily make me a better person than you, I assume the same about groups of people.

Some societies yield better results than others, be it in levels of corruption, power abuse, human development. You can tell by observing where people in distress tend to seek refuge.
There is no proven causality between religious, cultural, or other collective identities and said results, despite what some pundits, bloggers, scribblers, and other media personalities (which in this day and age can include any bloke and his channel down the YouTubes) may tell you.

Unfortunately, just as some people couldn’t bear themselves, let alone love themselves, without believing their being better than you, they couldn’t love their tribe, congregation, nation, country, without believing theirs is better than yours.
So they’ll call you a cultural relativist out of love of their culture [Edit: or out of hate for your culture].

edited 30th May '18 9:58:16 AM by AlityrosThePhilosopher

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4792: May 30th 2018 at 8:15:45 AM

[up] That's actually a interesting perspective, albeit, there cases where a culture can actually claim moral superiority. I mean, we're not gonna say that Nazi Germany was morally equivalent to the USA of WW 2

progressive means forward thinking and liberty granting

Then it means morally good. And being smarter (for the phrasing)

edited 30th May '18 8:23:59 AM by KazuyaProta

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AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#4793: May 30th 2018 at 8:24:18 AM

[up]×6 Ambar Sonof Deshar

I'd add to this that, according to several different French people I've gotten into fights with online North American "prudishness" includes such terrible things as "not letting adults bone teenagers." More than once I've had to suffer through arguments in favour of sexual predation dressed up in liberal or progressive rhetoric, and grounded on "well if it's against the law in America that must be because of conservative religious morality."
Arguing the superior morals of muh identitee is commonly used by paedo-apologists.
When one of the countries of which I’m a citizen finally outlawed marriage of minors, some interlocutors from the US told me that it’s due to looser morals undermining the sanctity of marriage, freedom of religion, what have they.
Similarly, some French interlocutors told me “old enough to bone then old enough to marry and vice-versa” about the same, sounded like some Arnolphe redivivivus from Molière’s L’École des Femmes.

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#4794: May 30th 2018 at 8:33:27 AM

@Very Vile Villain from last page: No writer has been 'outed' as a literal Nazi, but a distressing number of Sci Fi writers have shown an unabashed love for Militarism, Fascism, Authoritarianism, and/or various types of Supremacy ideology.

For Star Wars, more than a few writers have been called out for portraying the actual, day-to-day grind of the Empire's oppression, slavery, and conquest as misunderstood or necessary, portraying the Empire in the right for any number of reasons while portraying the Rebellion as Bomb-Throwing Anarchists who are wrong for fighting a legitimate government.

As for specific writers: Karen Traviss' transparent love for authoritarianism bleeds through the most often, along with her thoughts on supremacy (read: Colonialism, taming 'savage peoples', and having certain peoples/cultures that are better by default and need to be enforced on the rest of the universe, always militaristic and authoritarian).

There are also some seriously ugly threads in the work of Kathy Tyers, though she only did a handful of stories for Star Wars.

edited 30th May '18 9:08:04 AM by ViperMagnum357

AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#4795: May 30th 2018 at 8:38:49 AM

[up][up][up] Kazuya Prota:

That's actually a interesting perspective, albeit, there cases where a culture can actually claim moral superiority. I mean, we're not gonna say that Nazi Germany was morally equivalent to the USA of WW2

That the USA at the time of WW 2 was morally better than Nazi Germany doesn’t make Americans inherently better than Germans or US culture inherently superior to the German one, methinks.

Though Nazis claimed to be Eternal Germany at the time, anyone anywhere can become Nazi or Nazi-like in the name of any country, nation, culture, religion.
That’s frightening yet is indicative (tough not demonstrative) of equality among all human groups, even though some may at one given moment in history be in the right while others are in the wrong.

That parent with child in the sealed cattle car carving their names on the wooden walls could be me tomorrow if I’m careless, so could that brutal SS be me if I’m careless just as well.
And that’s some scary shit right there!

edited 30th May '18 9:24:43 AM by AlityrosThePhilosopher

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#4796: May 30th 2018 at 8:43:34 AM

Re: the definition of progressivism above, I’d challenge that it means “liberty granting” . In the sense that we’re using it in it only means a reform agenda for society, it doesn’t imply any specific type of agenda.

They should have sent a poet.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#4797: May 30th 2018 at 8:44:27 AM

No writer has been 'outed' as a literal Nazi, but a distressing number of Sci Fi writers have shown an unabashed love for Militarism, Fascism, Authoritarianism, and/or various types of 'Supremacy' ideology.

Also worth noting that the one of the most important editors of sci-fi literature, John W. Campbell, was a racist who was frequently accused of being a cryptofascist because of his authoritarian views.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#4798: May 30th 2018 at 8:50:49 AM

For Star Wars, more than a few writers have been called out for portraying the actual, day-to-day grind of the Empire's oppression, slavery, and conquest as misunderstood or necessary, portraying the Empire in the right for any number of reasons while portraying the Rebellion as Bomb-Throwing Anarchists who are wrong for fighting a legitimate government.

How? Why? What exactly part of the Empire strykes anyone as misunderstood or necessary? I hope nothing from "New Canon" have this undertones. I get that people complain about Star Wars being "Black and White" and that's why there are several media that want's to portray Empire as "Grey". You know to make "Grey and Grey" story that's very popular today, despite the fact that both Empire and RL Fashist goverment on what Empire based from were very far away from "Grey".

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#4799: May 30th 2018 at 8:55:32 AM

[up]I have read everything from the New Canon apart from the latest comics, and from what I can tell this is entirely absent. The closest we have gotten in-universe is the Empire being a Villain with Good Publicity up to the destruction of Alderaan. They seem to have handpicked their writers this time around, instead of outsourcing to a typical stable of Sci Fi writers.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4800: May 30th 2018 at 9:03:54 AM

Admiral Pellaeon and the New Empire are routinely portrayed as Worthy Opponent types with part of Visions of the Future being that many of the galaxy's population voluntarily chooses to join the Empire after the surrender agreement. Later, in Legacy, the Imperials are portrayed as the good guys since the NEW SITH are evil but the Empire under the Fels were good.

There were also a lot of "Good Imperial" stories like Janek Sunber ("Tank" from Tatooine), Agent Cross who is JAMES BOND IN SPACE, and Soontir Fel (The Red Baron). They continually talk about ORDER and DISCIPLINE as the Empire.

There was also the TIE Fighter game which George Lucas famously cancelled as a series because he was scared fans would start believing the game's deliberate Irony was true.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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