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How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#3101: Feb 1st 2018 at 5:46:03 PM

Well, with CG and LE, I think the issue is that many people interpret the former as "good, but less so" and the latter as "evil, but less so". Specifically, people tend to view Chaos as "somewhat evil" and Law as "somewhat good".

Having said that, the way I do alignment this isn't the case.

Leviticus 19:34
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3102: Feb 1st 2018 at 5:50:08 PM

I think whoever wrote up the pages on Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil had some pretty good ideas of what they entail. I especially like the Lawful Evil picture caption. It sums up Lawful Evil pretty well, I think.

"Bringing order to the galaxy. Even if we have to choke the shit out of it."

edited 1st Feb '18 5:50:25 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3103: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:09:45 PM

Is kinda cheapened when you realize that the Sith are chaotic as fuck as a whole

Watch me destroying my country
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3104: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:18:29 PM

Palpatine liked to pretend he was in it for peace and order, but at heart he just wanted to increase his own personal power and corrupt other people. He was Chaotic Evil pretending to be Lawful Evil pretending to be Lawful Good.

Anakin was Chaotic Good shifted into Lawful Evil using Chaotic Evil power and a self-loathing mess by ROTJ.

edited 1st Feb '18 6:19:27 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3105: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:25:31 PM

We're really sure that Vader is Lawful Evil actually? He's evil but he's not really truly loyal to Palpatine, wanting to get a We Can Rule Together with Luke, Vader don't really have a code or order, he's still the angry teen Anakin at heart.

Watch me destroying my country
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3106: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:29:12 PM

[up] By ROTJ, Vader is just...tired. He's tired of constant fighting and conflict and wants some order in his life again. His problem is that he thinks that, after all of the evil he's committed in his life, it is too late for him to change. He convinced himself he no longer had moral agency. Luke snaps him out of that mindset.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#3107: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:32:44 PM

The thing is, I never felt that he was Lawful Evil, I know that Vader is/was evil, but Lawful Evil? That's Tarkin, not Vader

Watch me destroying my country
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3108: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:36:16 PM

Tarkin isn't really Lawful Evil. His motivation was never really about order or anything. He embodies Ambition Is Evil.

Vader by contrast was motivated at heart by the desire for things to make sense in his life.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#3109: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:53:30 PM

Alignment is the sum of its parts, action as well as intention. I feel like Tarkin's MO is so deeply lawful that it colours his motivation far more than the other way around. Vader, too. There's a reason why mob bosses are often considered Lawful despite being, y'know, criminals— they operate systematically, they abide by their own particular set of rules, they propagate order, corrupt though it might be.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#3110: Feb 1st 2018 at 6:54:20 PM

Sidious is Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil and the Sith as a whole trend Chaotic, but that doesn't mean individual Sith can't be an exception. Vader is often, if not always, portrayed as really believing the galaxy would be better off under a jackboot. Unfortunately, he's fully aware that said jackboot can't belong to Sidious.

Tarkin's ambitious for himself, but he's also been written as a genuine believer in the concept of the Empire and in rule through fear.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3112: Feb 1st 2018 at 7:02:48 PM

We rarely get to see much of Vader's politics on account of how personal his story is. However, Vader has a few lines which strongly imply a Lawful alignment. In his appeal to Luke, he specifically says:

"Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy."

He cares about stabilizing the galaxy, but is very much on the Security side of Freedom v. Security. Revenge of the Sith would go on to give him a line that parallels that focus.

"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire."

Anakin does ultimately believe that a strict system of law and justice is the only way to secure peace and stability within the galaxy and would provide a net positive benefit to the people who live in it. If anything, his Lawful nature is what winds up pushing him to the Dark Side; he demands due process for Palpatine and hacks off Mace Windu's arms when that due process is denied.

Anakin is caught up on an unrealistic ideal of how a perfect system of justice should behave, and is constantly disappointed by reality's failure to live up to that standard. He has a Messianic politics problem. He betrayed the Jedi because they couldn't live up to his perfect ideal. He betrayed the Empire because Sidious couldn't. And he gave up on himself because he couldn't.

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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3113: Feb 1st 2018 at 7:19:28 PM

[up] If I recall correctly, there's also a scene of him and Padmé discussing the Republic and its flaws in Episode II, with him favouring a more authoritarian solution over democracy.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3114: Feb 1st 2018 at 7:24:06 PM

Eeyup. Anakin is in love with the ideological hypothetical of the Benevolent Dictator. Unfortunately, reality consistently thwarts his efforts to establish one.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#3115: Feb 1st 2018 at 7:25:36 PM

[up]This is best examplefied when he talk to padme and display and kind childish view of dictarorship, saying that rarher than arguing about Stuff people should just DO IT, buying the mythos of the Puré and rightious Man who destroy evil whatever he goes.

Im short Anakin is the guy who would soport Irak, said they should just try to kill kim jong um and kill evil muslism because otherwise is letting go unpunished.

Funny thing is, the new trilogy is proving him right by the new republic allowing the first order to exist.....damn.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3116: Feb 1st 2018 at 7:34:36 PM

[up] The New Republic's issue isn't so much that they didn't completely crushed an enemy - but that they basically disarmed themselves after going all Versailles on the Empire and then expected the former enemies to not capitalise on it.

From the background material I read, they downsized their military extensively, which is why the attack on the Hosnian system was so crippling - it wiped out most of their actual naval capacity.

They didn't prove Anakin right, they showed why even if you value peace, being on your guard is never a bad idea, especially if you know that somebody might still have a grudge against you.

edited 1st Feb '18 7:35:36 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#3117: Feb 1st 2018 at 9:09:04 PM

He has a Messianic politics problem.

Probably didn't help that he is the Messiah.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3118: Feb 1st 2018 at 9:13:00 PM

[up] Or worse, that everyone around him kept calling him The Messiah while also treating him like any other Padawan. This led to some entitlement issues.

What makes it even sadder is that his entire role as The Chosen One ultimately boiled down to being in the right place at the right time to chuck the Big Bad down a reactor shaft and die in the process.

edited 1st Feb '18 9:14:32 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#3119: Feb 1st 2018 at 9:28:52 PM

[up][up][up]Okay, disarmament was just one mistake the New Republic made. All those Imperials that surrendered to them and were spared? They did so entirely in bad faith — a pure The Farmer and the Viper situation. Why did the former Imperials run away and build the First Order to put the Galaxy under the even more terrible jackboot of the First Order? Because they're Imperials. Why did the former Imperials playact as loyal Republicans while secretly aiding the First Order from a newfound position of respectability. Because they're Imperials. What did the New Republic in was the same thing that did Caesar in: pardoning intractable enemies will never work.

It's honestly kind of weird seeing Space Nazis being handed a Versailles analogue to sign. It's probably the aspect of the new canon that's most disconcerting.

edited 1st Feb '18 9:39:04 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3120: Feb 1st 2018 at 9:38:46 PM

[up] Neither will Kill Em All.

edited 1st Feb '18 9:39:00 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#3121: Feb 1st 2018 at 9:51:51 PM

Yes, but the Imperials are all so universally evil that the generous terms they're given and the Disarmament Bill passed so soon after they're defeated makes the NR and Mon Mothma look foolish and naive. There wasn't even a powerful rival power that would have provided a need for co-opting prominent Former Regime Personnel. Every single Imperial was a potential enemy. Like, they're trying to cram in these WWI and WWII and Cold War history analog factoids devoid of context which, when stitched together, turns the First Order into a Diabolus ex Machina and the New Republic into Stupid Good lemmings. We have yet to see a villain in Star Wars actually be grateful for mercy, rather than spit on it. One way or another, the villainy recidivism asymptotically approaches 100%.

The ST sidesteps the issue entirely by removing that framework, rather than really exploring it.

edited 1st Feb '18 10:05:56 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#3122: Feb 1st 2018 at 11:16:14 PM

Yeah, using the Versalles análogy dosent work here because the empire should be WW 1 rarher that nazis but this guys are just neo nazis wet dream Mixing a bit with the whole "Argentina is naziland" which is stupid.

Also there os a little bit of false choice here, between "throw the past" and "fuck them hard", eventually US did help Germany while ensuring nazism didnt grow again, and so was japan, today both are prósper nation and in be case of germany is beating the US in some áreas like refuges for example.

You can defeated the first other without resorting to genocide.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3123: Feb 1st 2018 at 11:18:31 PM

The USA did help Japan, but they didn't do quite as much "deprogramming". That's why Japan is currently being run by a bunch of history whitewashing jackasses.

Germany's doing alright, though their reunification with East Germany has continued to cause headaches.

edited 1st Feb '18 11:20:25 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#3124: Feb 1st 2018 at 11:39:48 PM

[up]

I wonder how Italy is doing.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3125: Feb 2nd 2018 at 7:04:52 AM

I found this article from the Daily Beast discussing playwright Arthur Miller, his relationship with Marlyn Munroe, how his stories tell some troubling things about his relationships with women and can be argued to have affected how society reacts to women naming their rapists, sexual assaulters and harassers.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/him-too-how-arthur-miller-smeared-marilyn-monroe-and-invented-the-myth-of-the-male-witch-hunt?ref=home

Basically, the first part of the article criticizes how Miller's story of the Salem Witch Trials twists the situation into being the fault of the women. Abigail Williams (aged 11 at the time of the trials, aged 17 in Miller's play) is an evil Femme Fatale who takes advantage of the fear and paranoia of the Witch Trials to get revenge on John Procter (aged 60 at the time of the trials, aged 35 in Miller's play) for denying her after they slept together and takes advantage of the paranoia surrounding the witch trials to . The play also puts the blame for the affair on Procter's wife Elizabeth for being "cold" to him which leads to the affair.

There is also the depiction of Tituba, the black slave who was tortured into confessing to witchcraft and naming several others. As the author puts it:

Notably, this is one of the rare incidents in American history in which a woman of color was unquestioningly believed by white men, largely because she confirmed things a white community would have already suspected of her. Later, Tituba recanted every word, and stated that the Reverend Parris had beaten her to force her confession, but it was as tempting to ignore her then as it was to believe her in the first place. Tituba, post-witch trials, was sold to an unknown person for her jail fees, and disappears from history.

Well, not entirely. The narrative of Tituba was seized upon by male authors ranging from Longfellow to William Carlos Williams to Arthur Miller himself. By the time she lands in The Crucible, Tituba’s heritage has shifted: she’s described as “a Negro slave” and practices voodoo. She speaks in a dialect that calls to mind Mammy in Gone With the Wind.

The girls of Salem dance naked in the forest, presumably with her knowledge. She brews a chicken blood charm to kill John Proctor’s wife, and Abigail drinks it.

In Miller’s telling, Tituba does not need to be formally accused, let alone beaten (though by 1996, the film version shows Tituba being whipped), to confess – it comes surging out of her mouth with very little provocation as she worries over the sick Betty Parris. In the panic of a room filled with neighbors and girls, she is guided to accuse two white women, Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne – historically, they were accused by the girls themselves, not by Tituba.

The article sums it up by saying that the theme of The Crucible is "terrible things will happen".

It's quite an interesting article. I never really considered the Reality Subtext of The Crucible when I read it in high school or the unfortunate implications. Definitely see it a bit differently now.


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