I apologise for the being off topic but I just have to delurk to say how hilarious the timing of this statement is considering today's announcement![]()
[[goes back to lurking]]
edited 1st Feb '18 1:53:18 PM by SebastianGray
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Yeah, Dark works tend to have dark versions of the archetypes, while idealistic/lighthearted works tend to play them in a Idealistic romanticed version.
I mean, you arent gonna find Knights being evil mass murderer thugs in a Disney movie, but you can find them in a Dark Fantasy like ASOIAF.
Albeit, II think that we have some Samurai based villains in western media, but most of them play the positive version of their archetype.
edited 1st Feb '18 1:55:52 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my countryIdealized knights are kind of a Dead Horse Trope these days. How often do you see a Knight in Shining Armor played absolutely straight these days in a work not explicitly marketed to five year olds?
Idealized samurai, though? Alive and well.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Idealised knights in a "mature" setting, so to speak, are usually seen as oddities, I found. The Tales Of Dunk And Egg (set in the ASOIAF universe) have a character being cheered for being "a knight who remembered his vows".
And even in that case said knight is of fairly low standing and might not even be a real knight.
edited 1st Feb '18 2:01:06 PM by DrunkenNordmann
We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Yeah, George and his love of social outcasts cause that A LOT, from the characters trying to be a "real Knight", the only one that is not a social Outcast is Barristan Selmy.
Dunno, maybe Teenage-aimed fantasy have some good Knights? I have see anime that have that, so I guess that western fantasy should have their own good Knights (and even ones that mix Knights and Samurais).
The Jedi could be considered a example of a modern, still relevant Good Knights, but they still have a Samurai "eastern" motif.
The Secret World had the Templars, that try to avoid the Association with the Knight Templar IRL and are clearly based on the idea of a modern Knight (english gentlemens, their leader is a Afro-british man, is pretty refreshing, they are still darker than your usual Knight in Shining Armor, but they are a pretty Light Grey given the setting.
edited 1st Feb '18 2:07:18 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
But no one want to be a Paladin , except people trying to play as Lawful Good and believing that because only Lawful Good characters can be Paladin, then all Lawful Good characters should be paladins.
(I never played in Dn D, but I imagine that people trying to force all Lawful Good players to be Paladins is a constant annoyance)
edited 1st Feb '18 2:20:06 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my countryHasn't really been like that for a while, but Lawful Stupid and Stupid Good are tropes for a reason, let's just say that.
As a fan of Tamora Pierce I can confirm that.
Fire Emblem also sports knights of all moralities.
edited 1st Feb '18 2:32:34 PM by TroperOnAStickV2
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.Weird, Paladin seems like a natural choice.
Anyway, I don't remember the last time I saw a corrupt Knight or an innocent Samurai in Japanese media.
The only Samurai I remember from Western media is Jack, and he's not actually a samurai at all!
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.![]()
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The thing is, most people seems to believe that Lawful Good is a mix of both, or more exactly Paladin Style Lawful Good.
When you are Lawful Good, yeah. The issue is that the whole eternally permanent and 100% unflexible (unless you willingly try to find legal voids) Moral Code can be annoying when either the player or the GM screw it.
I find interesting how a Knight in Sour Armor or a Pragmatic Hero willing to Shoot the Dog is considered either Neutral Good or Chaotic Good while a Well-Intentioned Extremist Utopia Justifies the Means (AKA. the same thing but in a larger scale) is Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral at best. Lawful Good cant be pragmatic and willing to Shoot the Dog?
edited 1st Feb '18 2:38:29 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country![]()
The bigger your actions, the greater the consequences, the finer the line, the deeper the cost. Good actions are additive, but evil ones are exponential. Warriors Are Linear, Wizards Are Quadratic.
Is not about the Moral Axis, is about the Lawful and Chaotic Axis
A utilitarian Pragmatic Hero is Chaotic Good but the Totalitarian Utilitarian is Lawful Evil? I get the moral Axis, but I don't get the Law Chaos Axis
edited 1st Feb '18 3:13:51 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my countryAt my tables there's never been a strong pressure for Lawful Good players to play a Paladin, but there then again, I'm the only one who consistently plays Lawful Good characters. It's definitely accurate to say that the Paladin is designed with the expectation that your character will be LG, though it's not mechanically required in newer additions by RAW. In my own setting, they can't stray too far from their deity's alignment, but they come in every alignment.
In older editions the Paladin was a deliberately "better" class, but they mechanically had to be LG or else they'd lose their powers. The issue came when D Ms would throw no-win situations at them, or worse, To Be Lawful or Good situations. For example, you encounter slaves in a society where slavery is legal. If you don't save them, you're no longer considered good. If you free them, you're no longer considered lawful. For the record, this isn't a good way to treat alignment.
My first character was a pseudo-Paladin (a cleric ranger multiclass, but a Paladin in all but name). He was a Token Good Teammate in a largely CN party. I played this for laughs-it was essentially what would happen if Captain America joined the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Leviticus 19:34The Law-Chaos axis is really vague, to the point someone once declared "there's a thin line between Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil".
Personally, how I rule it is that Law is utilitarian and puts the mission first, where as Chaos is more emotion-driven and puts the team first.
Good example: a beloved teammate is captured by the enemy. Abandoning the teammate to complete the mission is Lawful Good. Abandoning the mission to save the teammate is Chaotic Good.
Leviticus 19:34I always took the alignment system more as a guideline for roleplaying than an actual strict ruleset.
As an aquaintance told me, you can tell a good DM from a bad DM based on how they interpret the alignment system.
Sometimes there are situation where you simply can't Lawful Good without being self-destructive - a good DM will recognise that Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Stupid, while a bad DM will you force into basically doing suicidal stuff because "that's your alignment".
edited 1st Feb '18 3:34:35 PM by DrunkenNordmann
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyMost people would argue alignment should be scrapped, though I disagree.
Generally, I interpret Law as coldly logical and utilitarian (Spock), and Chaos as emotional and personal (Mc Coy) and the balance between the two would be The Kirk.
Leviticus 19:34![]()
Yep. It's a tendency, not a straitjacket, is the important thing. Most people's alignments can and should shift and drift over time, or quite possibly flip right over during a crisis, in the heat of the moment.
...I really *shouldn't*, but to my mind, Bones is probably straight-up Neutral Good, Spock is Lawful Good on the border of Lawful Neutral, and Kirk is usually Lawful Good, occasionally Neutral, sometimes more Chaotic than Mc Coy, even. There. Now you can feel free to disagree.
Picard, though, is a great example of being Lawful Good without being stupid about either one.
edited 1st Feb '18 3:50:28 PM by Unsung
Picard is a bless.
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Honestly, same. Is better than the whole Law=Muh Honor and Chaos= Whatever as long it looks cool. Plus, it allows for deconstructions of Chaotic Good, that counter the deconstructions of Lawful Good that are becoming more popular.
Coming back to topic, is curious how Samurai and Knights are treated nowadays, right?
You just described Anakin Skywalker.
edited 1st Feb '18 3:55:42 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my countryAt least from my reading/watching, I haven't come across a huge amount of works featuring knights anyway. Like besides ASOIAF and the Red Knight books (which I haven't read as of yet), I can't really think of anything for an "adult audience" that has traditional knights.
Samurai are definitely "exotic" from a Western perspective, but I also think part of it is because Western works don't typically explore samurai being both a profession and a social class and also generally are really about ronin rather than samurai. Which is not surprising because samurai in Western works are pretty much based on relatively limited knowledge of the most cool/legendary samurai in Japanese history.
Needless to say, you're going to find more variety in takes on samurai in Japan (although I'd wonder about their knowledge of knights...) And because samurai were a class and profession, I think the better comparison with how Japanese works treat samurai would be how Western works treat feudal nobility- and in that case, you're going to get a fuller spectrum of morality and more examples than if you just look at questing knights.
On this topic, I was reminded of this cool book I got/started reading, The Curious Casebook of Inspector Hanshichi: Detective Stories of Old Edo. The premise of the story is that a retired detective, who came from the merchant class and is jolly and intelligent, if a bit of a rough neck, is recounting details of his cases to a narrator, closely based on the author, who comes from the samurai class and is like in the second generation to be involved in bureaucratic work rather than as any kind of warrior (even nominally).
It's quite entertaining and gives a glimpse of early 19th century Edo (and one unusual aspect is a lot of the cases have suspected supernatural components, because everyone was pretty superstitious). But samurai in the stories range between noble aristocrats,foppish bumblers, and outright criminals.
...I might just have to pick up that book.

Yeah, there are a number of japanese works which show the samurai in a much more cynical light. Shigurui is supposed to be one, although I've never read it myself.