Unclear Description: Could Have Avoided This Plot

I don't know if this forum is the right place for this or if I should use the Trope Description Improvement thread instead, but I was reading through the "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot page and realized that the trope is never actually defined. The description starts with an example of the trope in action, and then goes on to list situations in which the trope may happen.

I honestly don't know what counts as an example or not. The trope name itself and a few of the examples I've seen seem to suggest that anything that the characters could have done to avoid a plot counts, so, for example, a character forgetting a device has a particular function that could have helped them avoid a situation could count as long as it's later acknowledged. The description, however, seems to be specifically about characters being able to avoid conflict if they had decided to talk with the party they ended up opposing instead.

To add to the confusion, the laconic description seems to support the interpretation that it's specifically about someone avoiding potential conflict by talking things out, but the examples in the playing with page seem to be about just getting help in general. The trope page itself has all sorts of examples.

The only thing I'm clear on is that it requires In-Universe acknowledgement.

edited 9th Dec '16 6:54:54 PM by supergod

For we shall slay evil with logic...

Opened.

And That's exactly what is bad about Example As Thesis.

The best I can decipher, the trope is "A character creates the situation they find themselves in by failing to ask for help right at the start"

But that's not really very different from Poor Communication Kills, I think. Im' not sure it's completely separated from Idiot Ball, either. The only thing I see that is different is the requirement in Could Have Avoided... that it be acknowledged in-universe.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Ugh.

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The whole thing sounds like a complaint magnet to me. If it weren't for the numbers above, I'd probably suggest nuking it from orbit. But as it is, we'll probably have to find a gentler solution.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I've put a lot of effort into cleaning up misuses (going through all links, delating misuses). I think it's a good trope with a clear use (characters learn they could have avoided all the conflict of the plot if they did something different). The problem I see is that the description predates the clean up. I'm all for revising the description.

I'm with Ferot. I can see the similarities to Poor Communication Kills, but this is specifically a plot. All the bad stuff happens, and then at the end they discover that there was an easy solution the entire time that no one noticed.

Also, it should be custom-titled to "Could Have Avoided This" Plot.

edited 10th Dec '16 8:55:37 AM by Discar

That would go a long way toward ending the misuse.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

posts 4 and 5. Let's do it.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

It still needs a better description though.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with changing it to "Could Have Avoided This" Plot. I never interpreted it as the plot itself being about the trope. I read it more as a character saying, "We could have avoided this plot if we had done X instead."

edited 11th Dec '16 9:35:08 AM by supergod

For we shall slay evil with logic...

The Example as a Thesis reads like a sub of Just Eat Gilligan where the simple thing they didn't do to resolve the plot is "ask for help."

The second paragraph focuses on the characters acknowledging the situation after the fact.

Then it gets a bit confusing after that.

IMO the characters acknowledging they could've resolved the plot after the fact is the tropeworthy bit and most consistent with the name. It could probably get expanded to cover other missed ways to resolve the plot than just asking for help, too.

After going through the links it seems to be sliding into misuse again. Bumping.

I agree with @9, and the proposed new definition of @5 makes the two tropes seem like duplicates.

Maybe it can work as a supertrope for any instances that characters get entangled into conflict/problems because they didn't realise/ignore the best solutions for said problem. Subs may include Just Eat Gilligan, Forgotten Phlebotinum, Forgot About His Powers, Poor Communication Kills, etc.?

edited 31st Dec '16 7:40:39 AM by Adept

It does seem like we're missing a supertrope here, but maybe the supertrope is just Idiot Plot. Or maybe we just need some new supertrope from Idiot Plot in the middle to further narrow it down.

Oissu!

Idiot Plot and Idiot Ball are bad writing tropes though... the character(s) must actually make uncharacteristically stupid choices to advance the plot.

edited 5th Jan '17 8:32:53 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That description implies that Just Eat Gilligan is an Audience Reaction, and it's currently not listed as such. Should it be?

Just Eat Gilligan refers to out-of-universe three different times in the opening paragraph (audience, you, viewers).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Good God... I just went through the examples in Just Eat Gilligan and it turns out to be a mess.

Natter that tries to justify or render an example useless

Ballistic Ecks VS Sever
Star Wars
The Lord of the Rings
The Trope Namer
Doctor Who
Lost in Space
Power Rangers
Star Trek: Voyager
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Breaking Bad
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Persona 3
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Pikmin 3
Skies of Arcadia?
Five Nights at Freddy's
Popeye
The Transformers
Jem
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987)
Pinky and the Brain
Justice League

Thread mode

Twilight
Star Trek: Voyager
Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Gratuitous general examples

Time Travel (Live-Action TV)
Annoying Next Door Neighbor (Live-Action TV)

Complaining

All over the place, especially Kamen Rider

Irrelevant backhanded compliments (and complaining)

Degrassi: The Next Generation

Bad flow of text

All over the place, especially Lost

So a lot of debates and complaining goes back and forth in that page. I'm starting to think that Just Eat Gilligan depends on a judgement call, and thus might be YMMV.

edited 7th Feb '17 7:42:58 AM by Gosicrystal

So, are we agreeing on the description? What exactly would it be?

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

...that this trope is the non-YMMV version of Just Eat Gilligan, I guess?

Though that is pretty problematic because Just Eat Gilligan is not listed as an Audience Reaction (even though the description and examples apparently say it is), and in that case it would mean exactly the same as "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot.

Any thoughts on my proposal in @11?

edited 7th Feb '17 10:57:07 PM by Adept

@11, "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot is different from those tropes in that it requires characters in-univeres to realize and point out that they could have been avoided. The tropes you list are about stupidity, this trope is about the stupidity being pointed out/realized in-universe and the emotional torque stemming from the wasted efforts. It's a related concept since it often follows those trope, but different enough that lumping them together will not help misuse. Worse, it might encourage it.

The best ideas for fixes I've seen were to change the name to "Could Have Avoided This" Plot, since it better emphasizes that acknowledging the plots avoidability within the plot is a vital part, and clean up misuses. And improve the description.

As for Just Eat Gilligan, maybe that should get its own thread. And if we make it YMMV, how would it be different enough than Idiot Plot to be its own trope as opposed to an outlet for comlplaining? If Idiot Ball is not YMMV, I see no reason Just Eat Gilligan (a possible sub-trope where everyone idiotically fails to point out a potential fix to the plot) should be.

In my experience, Idiot Plot requires multiple individuals to make multiple mistakes. Just Eat Gilligan requires multiple individuals to make the same single mistake of not realizing a obvious fix to the plot. I wonder if Idiot Plot is too broadly defined?

edited 7th Feb '17 11:34:42 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

About the "plot-induced forgetting" idea, I think it's worth a new supertrope? (Assuming there isn't one already)

Btw how would Elephant in the Living Room relate to this?

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

Just Eat Gilligan is a sub-trope of Elephant in the Living Room where the "elephant" is something that would invalidate the plot. "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot may well be a subversion of this since the "elephant" is ultimately pointed out.

What? That's assuming the characters are aware of the thing that would resolve the plot, but are deliberately not commenting on it; which doesn't make sense. Besides, as a character, how do you ignore an "elephant" and then be shocked when you realize the answer was there all along?

If in-universe awareness is a requirement for Elephant in the Living Room, then I've seen misuse. The relation of Elephant in the Living Room and Just Eat Gilligan is stated in the former page as "For cases where there is a subject within the series that simply cannot be questioned, or else the whole premise will fall apart, it's a case of why they don't Just Eat Gilligan."

I think we are getting off topic. We are trying to figure out how to curtail misuse of "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot, and comparing it to other tropes is only highlighting the confusion. We should be discussing how to make it more dissimilar to them.