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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#476: Mar 13th 2017 at 6:34:12 PM

Does it matter, really?

It does. It didn't have to be there. It was just "plot serum that makes Logan fight better" when Logan's story throughout is all about him fighting through the pain and not really achieving any grand victory. Wolverine's all about physical struggle, so now he needs a serum just to keep up? That's lame. It runs out after, what, 5-6 minutes? Same fight scene could have happened with Logan just entering a berserk state and going all One-Man Army in what was ultimately a Bolivian Army Ending.

It's not even really contrived, they're brewing folks with healing factors.

They brewed one.

So not only have they successfully cloned Wolverine, first as a girl, and then as a fully grown, albeit completely homicidal berserker, and someone grafted adamantium onto both instead of coming up with proper countermeasures to deal with them, they also came up with a healing liquid they carry in small vials/syringes instead of creating apparatuses or guns that can remotely inject them, and said liquid can potentially make the actual targets stronger?

Rice strongly implies X-24 is extremely new and his attack at the farm was his very first mission, which is why it goes sideways so easily

Fair enough.

Quite possibly they simply didn't have enough Adamantium.

Convenient. Well, inconvenient. We had enough to roughly graft it onto the skeleton of a little girl and enough to create a full-body replica of Wolverine, but we didn't think to make a few bullets out of it? I'm almost certain it would take less adamantium.

it is supposed to be a very rare metal after all. Particularly since Stryker seems to have been the only one in the movieverse with the capacity to actually manipulate adamantium

Then the bad guys are idiots:

  • They took the rarest metal in the world, a good deposit of it, and only had just enough to make two known Wolverine clones.
    • Ultron: The most versatile substance on the planet... and they used it to make a frisbee.
  • All Stryker said was that they had to keep it hot. These people are breeding mutant super soldiers in a future full of self-driving cars and holographic displays and magical healing factor enhancing drugs, and they can't figure out how to heat up a tub of adamantium? Really, the evil pharmaecutical company/private military/research team invested in replicating Wolverine couldn't figure this out?

notice X-23's claws are surgically put in her hands rather than fused with her bones like Logan's).

Admittedly I hadn't noticed that.

Donald Pierce doesn't actually know if Xavier is even alive by the beginning of the movie so presumably Transigen doesn't either. When Logan tells him he's dead Pierce seems to believe him (even muttering "Damn shame") up until he sees Xavier alive later in the chase. It's also unclear via which method Shaw's helmet was built, it's possible it's something of a Black Box and no one can replicate it (if it was easy, after all, every single X-Men villain would carry one around).

Donald Pierce doesn't actually know if Xavier is even alive by the beginning of the movie so presumably Transigen doesn't either.

I got the impression he knew Logan was lying given he turned up at the hideout later anyway.

When Logan tells him he's dead Pierce seems to believe him (even muttering "Damn shame") up until he sees Xavier alive later in the chase.

If that's the case then, again, the bad guys are idiots.

It's also unclear via which method Shaw's helmet was built, it's possible it's something of a Black Box and no one can replicate it (if it was easy, after all, every single X-Men villain would carry one around).

Possible, but I still see that as kind of a stretch given how far their technology has come just in DOFP. Recreating Wolverine was supposed to be a damn impossible feat by itself, and they pretty much had two functioning clones.

Pierce, once again, doesn't really seem to know or care about Xavier's survival and at any rate, there's not much he could have done. Entire movie is a rundown, neither Logan nor Transigen have time to stop and plan around their next move for long. Once there's a break, Xavier is already dead. Beforehand Transigen is just trying to find their missing mutants and by happenstance of fate stumble on Logan and Xavier, and afterwards all they do is chase him. They don't really have enough time to manufacture anything complex. Pierce's plan at the casino was in fact pretty solid: just shank him from the back. If he hadn't had a seizure they might have succeeded.

Movies run at the speed of plot, I find.

It's pessimistic but I honestly believe that if the shadowy medical corporation of evil douches wants to commission or obtain an anti-Xavier helmet, it wouldn't be that hard in this twisted, awful future. They had at least most of a day when Logan, Xavier, and Laura arrive at the hotel. They had time to bring out a Wolverine clone.

The moment they knew Xavier was in the vicinity they should have turned around.

The plan was not solid - take him out stealthily, granted. They also had some inkling that Xavier caused a tremendous incident in Westchester NY. They know that Xavier is extremely dangerous. If Xavier didn't have the seizure he likely would have seen them coming and could have killed them all before they even got close.

DOFP's good future takes place 6 years before this movie

So Wolverine would have had 6-10 years to live, judging from how he was doing at the start of this film.

Wolverine suffering from adamantium poisoning without his healing factor is implied by both Stryker in X2 and outright stated in The Wolverine.

Ah. See that makes sense. I watched The Wolverine once and slept through most of it. What did Stryker say about it in X2?

Who, Donald Pierce?

I honestly had no idea who this guy was supposed to be or why he's the main antagonist for the first half of the film.

edited 13th Mar '17 6:47:45 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#477: Mar 13th 2017 at 6:35:20 PM

He's way different in the comics.

For one, he's not Texan. For two, he was an original member of the Hellfire Club during the Dark Phoenix Saga. For three, he's almost fully robotic.

edited 13th Mar '17 6:35:28 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#478: Mar 13th 2017 at 6:48:44 PM

To be precise, it was during this particular incident:

Pierce was always a Cyborg, but this particular incident is the reason the Reavers were even formed in the comics.

DOFP's good future takes place 6 years before this movie.

Didn't know that. So he's not at the point where his healing factor is failing in the DOFP timeline it seems.

The Wolverine is implied to have taken place the year it was released in (2013).

That much I suspected.

Wolverine suffering from adamantium poisoning without his healing factor is implied by both Stryker in X2 and outright stated in The Wolverine.

I don't reply Striker saying anything like that in X2. I remember him saying that Wolverine was always an animal and stuff like that. That he was unique, etc...

That being said, him dying of adamantium poisoning is a thing that can happen without his healing factor.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#479: Mar 13th 2017 at 7:13:25 PM

It does. It didn't have to be there. It was just "plot serum that makes Logan fight better" when Logan's story throughout is all about him fighting through the pain and not really achieving any grand victory. Wolverine's all about physical struggle, so now he needs a serum just to keep up? That's lame.

It doesn't make him fight particularly better. It just makes him heal for a short period of time. It's just to give Logan the chance for The Last Dance, to see him carve up soldiers like the good old days one last time (which would be rather difficult given how battered he is by this point). It doesn't even affect the plot as much: the juice dries up before he confronts Rice, so the entire showdown with X-24 is just him running on pure adrenaline.

They brewed one. So not only have they successfully cloned Wolverine, first as a girl, and then as a fully grown, albeit completely homicidal berserker, and someone grafted adamantium onto both instead of coming up with proper countermeasures to deal with them, they also came up with a healing liquid they carry in small vials instead of creating apparatuses or guns that can remotely inject them that only serve to make their targets stronger?

They actually do carry it in guns. Rice gives the liquid to X-24 via a syringe pistol. The vial Logan has was just something the kids stole one during their escape from the Transigen HQ.

Why weren't these given to their troops? They help healing factors but it isn't specified that "they only work on those with the mutant gene."

It's pretty easy to see why: Logan outright states the serum leaves people in a frenzied rage. This isn't an issue for X-24 because his purpose is to be The Berserker and just act as a glorified attack hound, but the troops need to be manageable. An entire army of ravaging, pillaging psychopaths is not something you'd want.

Convenient. Well, inconvenient. We had enough to roughly graft it onto the skeleton of a little girl and enough to create a full-body replica of Wolverine, but we didn't think to make a few bullets out of it? I'm almost certain it would take less adamantium.

Actually, it's unclear if they grafted X-24's entire skeleton and they clearly didn't with Laura's: Pierce clearly shoots a harpoon through her ribs early on. In the surgery we see only her hands and feet being operated on. She's also a kid, if they made her entire skeleton of Adamantium she wouldn't be able to grow (and thus be far less useful since she'd never develop proper muscle strength). When Will Munson drives X-24 onto some spikes, one of them pierces through what should have been his ribcage. This couldn't happen if he had a full skeleton.

They took the rarest metal in the world, a good deposit of it, and only had just enough to make two known Wolverine clones.

It's a lot less metal than it seems when you realize they probably just added claws to X-24 and Laura. Not the entire skeleton.

All Stryker said was that they had to keep it hot. These people are breeding mutant super soldiers in a future full of self-driving cars and holographic displays and magical healing factor enhancing drugs, and they can't figure out how to heat up a tub of adamantium?

Quite probably, they don't know they should either. X2 also implied Stryker was the only one who knew of Adamantium's secret (I.e keep it hot) and the method as of itself was Lost Forever to anyone who isn't Stryker (and given he died at the end of X2...).

If that's the case then, again, the bad guys are idiots.

That is true as well. Pierce is fairly competent when it comes to general tactics but he lacks finesse.

It's pessimistic but I honestly believe that if the shadowy medical corporation of evil douches wants to commission or obtain an anti-Xavier helmet, it wouldn't be that hard in this twisted, awful future. They had at least most of a day when Logan, Xavier, and Laura arrive at the hotel. They had time to bring out a Wolverine clone.

Between the fight at Logan's home and the casino there's more or less one day or so from what it is implied. They only bring out the Wolverine clone after that so even that takes about two days. Manufacturing an anti-psychic helmet from tech no one seems to have would probably take longer.

The moment they knew Xavier was in the vicinity they should have turned around. The plan was not solid - take him out stealthily, granted. They also had some inkling that Xavier caused a tremendous incident in Westchester NY. They know that Xavier is extremely dangerous. If Xavier didn't have the seizure he likely would have seen them coming and could have killed them all before they even got close.

Pierce may be unsure if Xavier's even alive, but he does know he has sclerosis and is barely functioning. He knows Xavier isn't in any good shape to fight back because he didn't destroy their minds during the fight at Logan's house, despite having ample opportunity to do so. Pierce even stops his men to chat with him face-to-face for a brief moment and Xavier does nothing, because he can't. Outside of the seizures all he can do is calm some horses down and converse with Laura via telepathy. It's not like Pierce had much choice: He could either attack him or let them escape his grasp.

Ah. See that makes sense. I watched The Wolverine once and slept through most of it. What did Stryker say about it in X2?

In The Wolverine it's spelled out the Adamantium would kill him if he lost the healing factor entirely, but in X2 is mostly Stryker being vague and ominous about things, stating no man could survive this process other than Logan because of his healing factor.

I honestly had no idea who this guy was supposed to be or why he's the main antagonist for the first half of the film.

Ah. Well, Pierce more or less states his business in his introductory scene at Logan's limo, saying who he's after ("the Mexican lady and the girl", i.e Gabriella and X-23) and who he works for (he ends the scene handing Logan a Transigen card). In Gabriella's videos we also see him walking around the experiments and acting as a general asshole so he's a basic glorified muscle for Transigen.

As for his comics origins, Adric and Rob got me covered.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#480: Mar 13th 2017 at 7:21:28 PM

Didn't Xavier try to fight the Reavers in the casino and that set off his seizures? Or am I mistaking the scene?

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#481: Mar 13th 2017 at 7:41:27 PM

We don't actually see it happen, and Logan thinks it was just a lucky accident, but Charles implies he did it on purpose, and the timing is pretty convenient.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#482: Mar 13th 2017 at 8:05:15 PM

I recall a discussion that adamantium poisoning doesn't make much sense because any sort of metal poisoning is because the metal itself flakes off into your bloodstream. Adamantium shouldn't do that. It would make more sense that adamantium was used because it's the only thing his body couldn't reject, and eventually causes his body to wear down because it's constantly TRYING to reject it, and the metal itself is blocking the normal oxygen and nutrient flow his body should be getting. But the movie says the adamantium bullet will kill him outright, which even by the film's own premise doesn't make much sense, it's like saying lead poising is why shooting victims die.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#483: Mar 13th 2017 at 8:10:34 PM

You got those confused. He's dying due Adamantium poisoning. The bullet would just kill him in a different way (I.e by blowing out his skull), since a regular bullet can't damage his adamantium skull, he'd have to use a Adamantium one to destroy his skull.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#484: Mar 13th 2017 at 8:36:42 PM

I actually inferred as much when the bullet showed up, especially since The Wolverine said that heated adamantium is the only thing that can deformed regular adamantium and bullets get hot when fired. But Logan says near the end that adamantium is poison to healers and that's what makes the bullet dangerous. It's an example of explaining things in a way that complicates it more.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#485: Mar 13th 2017 at 10:01:47 PM

No, he didn't say anything like that. He just said it could kill them. If we go by previous movies, he's just talking about it punching through the adamantine armoring on their skulls. Now, it's unclear how much of the bone grafting Laura and X-24 went through, but an adamantine bullet can punch through almost literally anything, so even if X-24's skull wasn't armored as much as Logan's, it still got the job done. It's not like an adamantium bullet can only punch through adamantium.

edited 13th Mar '17 10:02:31 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#486: Mar 13th 2017 at 11:46:49 PM

No, he said almost exactly that. I don't recall him saying anything about adamantium being indestructible, but he does say it is poisoning him and only the bullet can kill him. I agree that a super strong bullet that can shatter his adamantium skull makes more sense and is just plain simpler, hence my confusion at connecting it to his adamantium poisoning. In the film, X-24 takes several shotgun shots to the head and gets plenty of superficial damage (if you can call losing an eye superficial), but otherwise looked intact. In addition to the fact Logan couldn't slice its arms and head off like the other bad guys and required the use of the special adamantium bullet the logical assumption is that X-24 has the same full metal skeleton as Logan.

UnnamedTroper Since: Aug, 2015
#487: Mar 14th 2017 at 2:47:53 AM

[up]I'm pretty sure you misunderstood Logan's words and overly complicated thing.

Adamantium is always meant to be indestructible in the comic and in the movie. However as with all metal, it weaken and eventually melt with heat, that how it can be manipulated and formed into weapons.

The heated adamantium sword in The Wolverine didn't make much sense, by all mean it should be weaker than the cooled stuff. The adamantium bullet is just for blowing his adamantium skull out. He does say it is poison, but it is just the good-old metal-poisoning. If it is poison to healers, Jimmy would have die long ago.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#488: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:39:46 AM

Laura almost certainly wasn't given the full metal skeleton treatment, we saw them putting the claws in, she's still young and growing (which covering her bones in unbreakable metal would stop) and several times Logan puts himself between her and focussed gunfire Terminator 2 style. X24 I don't think did get bonded either - I get the impression there would have been other X24s if they worked out the kinks in the prototype version (e.g. he's a raging nigh-uncontrollable berserker) and I can't see them using up precious adamantium on a trial version.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#489: Mar 14th 2017 at 3:24:44 PM

You know...this is the perfect set-up for Cable. Dark future, cloning, etc.

edited 14th Mar '17 3:28:30 PM by ManOfSin

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#490: Mar 14th 2017 at 7:46:30 PM

Would be kind of weird to have a timeline reboot so soon after the last one, though. But honestly, if it gets Laura into the main movies (and gets rid of the "Shaggy Dog" Story of mutants just going extinct), I'll take it.

Hm, yeah, I can actually see this working. Cable shows up in Deadpool 2 with Laura. Jokes abound about how the most badass person Cable could find is twelve years old. Then, when the main X-Men movies get to 2017, there's a casual mention of "yeah, there was another Bad Future, but we already took care of it."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#491: Mar 14th 2017 at 9:04:16 PM

And how about them studying a clone of Kitty to invent time travel.

washington213 Since: Jan, 2013
#492: Mar 16th 2017 at 9:59:21 PM

Regarding an old topic, apparently everybody has the X-gene but only certain people have it activated. Is it ever revealed what activates it? It doesn't seem to be trauma like DCU metahumans since it's a Puberty Superpower, but then why doesn't it activate for everybody? And why do different people get seemingly random powers that aren't inherited (Quicksilver didn't get anything to do with magnetism). Is it like Heroes (or more accurately Heroes like X Men) where your power is a reflection of subconscious desires (then why do some have extreme side effects, like Calliban's sun weakness)?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#493: Mar 16th 2017 at 10:03:30 PM

And why do different people get seemingly random powers that aren't inherited (Quicksilver didn't get anything to do with magnetism).

I was about to point out that Quicksilver isn't Magneto's son anymore, but then I remembered he still is in the Xmen Film universe.

It's not really made clear to be honest.

One Strip! One Strip!
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#494: Mar 16th 2017 at 11:32:14 PM

Real world explanation: It was to create new characters without having to write origin stories each time.

In-universe: magic?

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#495: Mar 17th 2017 at 12:11:18 AM

Maybe the gene unlocks the ultimate psychosomatic effect, changing one's physiology to reflect certain subconscious aspects. It might explain why suppressing Chuck's telepathy somehow restores his mobility. Also explains the existence of more universal power nullifiers - Leech's abilities worked from across the room.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#496: Mar 17th 2017 at 12:23:55 AM

Has it been 100% confirmed that everyone has the mutant gene? I thought in Deadpool Ajax said "we're giving you a serum that will activate your latent mutant gene if you have one." And even with that, they needed to give him a Traumatic Superpower Awakening after.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#497: Mar 17th 2017 at 4:20:28 AM

The exact statements were "I'm injecting you with a serum that activates any mutant genes lurking in your DNA", followed by " If you're lucky, your mutant genes will activate and manifest in spectacular fashion." The wording is dubious, but more importantly, it implies it's not even a single mutant gene, but a whole multitude.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#498: Mar 17th 2017 at 7:56:55 AM

If everyone had the X-gene then Sentinels would have been targeting all humans.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#499: Mar 17th 2017 at 9:11:48 AM

I think Sentinels were only supposed to target active Mutant genes.

The issue is, they decided that the best way to prevent mutants was to deal with the main source: Humans.

One Strip! One Strip!
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#500: Mar 17th 2017 at 9:28:32 AM

In the old cartoon, they literally stopped seeing the difference. It was actually one of the more logical cases of robots turned against their masters, as their conclusion was that if mutants are humans, and humans need protection from mutants, then humans need protection from themselves, therefore it's up to the robots to ensure their safety.

Like I mentioned, it's kinda forced that the only technological replication of supernatural effects is always integrated within ginormous killer robots. The energy requirements can't be that high, considering the most prominent power source is the average teenage diet. Any superpower that runs on Fritos and Mountain Dew is portable enough to be put in a boomstick.

edited 17th Mar '17 10:48:08 AM by indiana404


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