I'd rather keep the table format for now, as Dueling Works will lose its purpose if its formatting changed.

New here to this thread and I'll be honest that the table format seems rather convoluted at best especially when it comes to editing new examples.

I was under the impression that cleanup was mostly finished. Is it not?

Oh well - if we do decide to change formats we could just delete misused entries as we come across them. Arguably that might be more ideal than scrolling through 20+ pages of text trying to figure which need to be removed.

Not sure what you mean? The content will be the same, we're simply proposing dropping the table and using a list.

Edited by BreadBull on Jun 1st 2019 at 4:28:27 AM

Regarding the cleanup, what criteria should be put in place? I know that it's been mentioned here once, but it ought to be established to be completely sure.

I only know that duelling works should have a timeframe of a few years apart. One example I found at the Western Animation page had the 1993 Filmation film Happily Ever After competing, and failing, against Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs, which premiered 6 decades ago.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Jun 7th 2019 at 12:04:35 AM

I think that the current suggestion that the works need to be broadcast or be new at the same time to be considered dueling works is a good idea. It prevents works Following the Leader from being listed.

That said, this conflicts with the current most popular labels for the works, which are "original" and "clone". If two works appear at the same time, they can't be cloning each other unless they are in a medium which has a short turn-around time.

Regarding the formatting debate: the main page of this trope has folders. Entries in the folders currently have no formal formatting.

Edit: Is there a limit to the number of works that can be listed in a single entry? There is an entry on the platforming video games page that lists Super Mario Odessy, Sonic Forces, Bubsy: The Wollies Strike Back, Crash Bandicoot N. Same Trilogy, Knack II, and Sonic Mania at the same time. The link is that they're all games released in 2017 with classic characters, except for Crash, which is a remake. Six works at once seems like quite a bit, especially since they appear to have 1 vs 1 pairings in subsequent entries.

Edited by VerySunshine on Jun 20th 2019 at 3:18:00 AM

I can't find an inherent limit but that's absolutely too many. I guess one original and multiple clones isn't impossible but those aren't that similar

Cheddar explains the concept of "twin films".

It really should be limited to two entries, maybe three entries if it comes to it. That'd probably make a decent second criterion too: it's highly unlikely four+ works with similar premises would come out at similar times.

And yeah, we really should drop the Original and Clone terms in favor of just Work 1 and Work 2.

Yeah, as that video demonstrates quite well it doesn't have to be original and clone, and even when it is you can't generally prove it.

I support "airing at the same time" as well. For non-serial works (those that are published all at once instead of over time), it should probably be within six months of each other, a year at most.

Unfortunately, there are many examples that need cleaning up over something other than the timeframe. Fandom-based shoehorning appears to be a consistent problem.

As an aside, the header text is still arranged vertically.

I would like to know if N64's The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (initiator) and the PS2's Dark Cloud (imitator) are considered dueling works.

The same can be said about the GameCube's The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (initiator) and the PS2's Dark Chronicle (imitator; known as Dark Cloud 2 in North America). Both of these games use cel-shaded anime-inspired animation as a start. Note: I played both to the closing credits and enjoy both for their own merits.

The Dark Cloud games were made as Level 5's answer to the Zelda series, given that I often hear the Dark Cloud games as being "Zelda killers" by fans.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Mar 1st 2021 at 10:45:46 AM

Wow, this has been simmering for a while. Either way, I agree that the pages are full of shoehorns and I think the cramped formatting makes those more difficult to identify, because the pages aren't even fun to read to begin with.

I agree the time frame should be limited — if not to the exact same year, let's say give it a five year maximum, to account for immediate Follow the Leader entries. I also think we need a cleanup thread for these shoehorns. I remember looking over DuelingWorks.Film Animated and finding some of the entries extremely contrived.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 2nd 2021 at 8:01:56 AM

Unless I might need mod approval for this, I'm going to add a header to this link. This has been over for five years, and it didn't get a header that it's still under discussion.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Mar 2nd 2021 at 8:41:00 PM

Regarding shoehorns, there needs to be rules on how are they "dueling."

mightymewtron, do you consider my examples of Majora's Mask vs. Dark Cloud and Wind Waker vs. Dark Chronicle valid examples for the purposes of this trope?

I strongly agree that the tables are so badly formatted that it's very difficult to read.

Bumping to summon mightymewtron regarding two potential cross-gentre video game examples.

~Mightymewtron

You weren't formatting it correctly. Here ya go.

I didn't respond because I don't know either of those games very well.

Which subpage is it on?

Not on any subpage actually.

I am asking if they can be added to DuelingWorks.Games Cross Genre.

The games in question are The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Dark Cloud, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, and Dark Chronicle.

The duelling entries are Majora's Mask vs. Dark Cloud and Wind Waker vs. Dark Chronicle.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Mar 9th 2021 at 10:55:09 AM

x a lot: Regarding Happily Ever After: Before about 1995, Disney had a policy of re-releasing their classics to theaters every so often, and Happily Ever After's release was timed to match the 1993 re-release of Snow White.

That makes sense. That mention of the 1993 re-release should be added.

On DuelingWorks.Film Superhero, The Green Hornet is listed as dueling with Iron Man and The Dark Knight, even though it came out in 2011, while the others came out in 2008. Apparently it was meant to come out earlier, but was delayed.

The tables need to be fixed.

Some of the columns have squished columns, even with wide load enabled on a desktop computer with extremely high pixel count.