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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1726: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:26:16 PM

I already addressed that, actually:

they were eventually replaced by Splicers - who were effectively the same sort of idea - in Season 2. And then then Season 3 noticeably dialed way back on the "teenage gangs" part of the Gotham setting, so both of those groups effectively went into remission until Return of the Joker.

Or in short: the Jokerz were a big part of Season 1, then a different gang of counter culture teenagers were given the same role in Season 2, and then the show backed off of the counter culture teenage gang idea almost entirely.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:27:09 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1727: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:27:41 PM

But the two episodes in which the Jokerz did take center stage were both in Season Two, not Season One. They weren't really a big part of Season One.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:28:15 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1728: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:29:42 PM

Looking up, that's true. They did still appear four times in the first season, though. And they appeared more times in the later episodes than I first thought.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1729: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:31:19 PM

Even the Splicers didn't play a role as the main baddies in most of the episodes in which they appeared. There's Abel Cuvier in "Splicers" and Kobra in "Curse of the Kobra".

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1730: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:32:44 PM

Again, the idea isn't for them to always be the biggest threats Terry faces, but for them to have a consistent presence - consistently reminding us that that kind of thing is all over the place in Gotham.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1731: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:35:38 PM

Which is why I call them "background noise". It's the kind of thing people learn to tune out — which is probably how these troubled youths ended up worshiping a dead criminal or tried to solve their problems by turning into animal people.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1732: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:36:44 PM

NVM. I'll just say that you chose a turn of phrase that sounds way nastier than I hope you intended it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:40:14 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1733: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:43:03 PM

Even the way you describe the Jokerz is more about them adding to the setting instead of being actual characters.

Heck, only one Jokerz gets explored as a character. The rest? We never even learn their names or code names.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:43:58 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1734: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:46:19 PM

Because they're a collective, so they're not meant to have major members for the most part.

It's pretty much exactly how BTAS used the mafia. Sometimes they would get names, sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes they would be a present part of a plot, sometimes they would be more of a background element. Sometimes they were mentioned yet never appeared. But the only major member was Rupert Thorne and he was never the main focus of any given episode - and was generally more of a catalyst for stories about other people. IIRC there's only one episode that's just about the mafia (Appointment at Crime Alley).

But I wouldn't use that to say the writers didn't put a lot of intention towards making sure the mafia were nevertheless an everpresent thing, nor would I use that to diminish Thorne's role in episodes like Two-Face even though he wasn't the main focus in any of them.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:49:32 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1735: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:50:29 PM

And you seem to think me dismissing them as petty thugs is a knock against the writers.

But it was the writers’ decision to portray them that way. From the start the Jokerz were written to be punks who were wannabes. Just look at how unimpressed Bruce was when one introduced themselves as the Jokerz. And this was in the first episode.

“Joyride” and “Hidden Agenda” at least showed us hints of why certain kids might have wanted to be Jokerz. Some of them wanted a place to belong. Some wanted power. And Carter / Terminal wanted stress relief.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:52:36 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1736: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:50:59 PM

And you seem to think me dismissing them as petty thugs is a knock against the writers.

I mean, it is when you actively dismiss or ignore the things they wrote that don't line up with your viewpoint, yeah.

I meant, you spend about half the last page going "sure, yeah, they wrote episodes with main Jokerz villains, but those characters don't matter and don't really count," when they do count, because the writers chose to create and write those stories.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:54:51 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1737: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:54:34 PM

I didn’t say they didn’t matter. I’m saying their threat level was never anything close to approaching the threat posed by the villain they emulate. In their role as Legacy Villains they fall short. And that was a deliberate choice by the writers.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1738: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:55:29 PM

Does threat level actually matter, regarding what we're talking about?

They don't have to be the strongest villains in the setting for them to be an element the writers put clear intention behind utilizing.

IIRC, this started out as "the writers never actually focused on legacy elements in Beyond," for which the presence of the Jokerz in itself is a contradiction - at least, that's the conversation I've been having.

"The Jokerz were never Terry's most powerful enemies" feels like a different conversation entirely. It's not like most writers gauge inclusion by power level. Especially not the DCAU writers, tbh.

Going back, this is the same issue some of the other instances brought up: "yes, there was an episode about Mr. Freeze, but he retired int he end and Blight defeated him" doesn't really discount the "there was an episode about Mr. Freeze" part of the situation, for instance. "Yes, there was an episode about Ra's, but he was pathetic in it," neither. Nor, "yes, Joker got an entire movie, but Terry made him look bad at the very end."

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:00:54 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1739: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:00:34 PM

They didn’t focus much on it. A grand total of five episodes out of 52 episodes (barring Return of the Joker) featured old baddies or their legacy villains as the main threats.

And again. I said “too much”, not “never”.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 1:01:22 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1740: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:01:35 PM

That doesn't really contradict my point either. I never said they made it the most major part of the show. I only said that the idea that they avoided it is patently false, because it is.

Generally speaking, by all appearances, if they had a good idea for a plot with a returning villain, they would try to develop it. Some they left on the cutting room floor, several they didn't. If they had plots for other things, they would use those.

But I don't think we can say they were specifically trying to shun the original cast, not if they did pursue those good ideas they had with that cast in the first place.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:03:36 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1741: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:03:27 PM

I was saying they avoided overusing it. That’s why I added the “too much” qualifier.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 1:03:35 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1742: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:05:07 PM

You did. But you also used the word "avoid" (you even bolded it), and I would again iterate that that's probably not the best descriptor for the situation.

I don't think it's fair to say they were avoiding anything. They used what they thought was right for the story and themes they were going for, whether it be a new concept or a returning concept.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:06:42 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1743: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:07:15 PM

They avoided the temptation to be lazy and just write “Beyond” versions of Bruce’s rogues. They tried to make new threats for a new Batman.

That’s a compliment to them, not an insult.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1744: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:08:33 PM

I also disagree that the idea of using older ideas is inherently lazy. Novelty isn't good simply for the sake of being novelty. What exactly is lazy about the Mr. Freeze episode, for instance?

Also, going back to the Jokerz, they would themselves probably count as a "Beyond" version of a rogue.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:10:48 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1745: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:10:21 PM

It’s lazy if most of them are just rehashed old baddies.

Hence “too much”.

I think focusing on older rogues for only three episodes was about right.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1746: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:10:39 PM

It’s lazy if most of them are just rehashed old baddies.

Because..?

Legacy Characters aren't, in and of themselves, a lazy concept. In fact, in a sitaution where you have a story that spans decades, they can be a valuable means of establishing throughline between the eras the story spans, and a means of showing that the earlier characters had a tangible effect on later characters.

That’s a compliment to them, not an insult.

Ehh, it comes off as presuming a very specific (and to be frank, fairly disparaging) viewpoint, and then assuming the writers shared that viewpoint because you have that viewpoint, which is why I made a point of bringing up examples of them not doing that in the past few pages.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:13:05 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1747: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:14:01 PM

I at least think it’s a good thing we didn’t just get Two-Face Beyond, Clayface Beyond, Poison Ivy Beyond, Killer Croc Beyond…

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1748: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:14:19 PM

Why those ones specifically?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:15:41 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1749: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:15:22 PM

Just didn’t feel like listing the whole damn rogues gallery from the original BTAS.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1750: Aug 11th 2025 at 10:15:44 PM

Remember that there's far more ways of writing a Legacy Character than just creating a carbon copy and slapping the same name on it, also. There's no reason to assume that's the only way such a thing can be done - in fact, I would go as far as to say it's kind of a conclusion jump to think that them utilizing legacy elements would have to look that way, given the quality of the writing that Beyond delivered.

Just look at The Jokerz. Look at how Terminal, leader of (one group of) the Jokerz, was specifically designed to be the literal opposite of Jack Napier in almost every way, and not just for show: they used that to deliver a very different kind of story as a result.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:21:07 AM


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