Because they're a collective, so they're not meant to have major members for the most part.
It's pretty much exactly how BTAS used the mafia. Sometimes they would get names, sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes they would be a present part of a plot, sometimes they would be more of a background element. Sometimes they were mentioned yet never appeared. But the only major member was Rupert Thorne and he was never the main focus of any given episode - and was generally more of a catalyst for stories about other people. IIRC there's only one episode that's just about the mafia (Appointment at Crime Alley).
But I wouldn't use that to say the writers didn't put a lot of intention towards making sure the mafia were nevertheless an everpresent thing, nor would I use that to diminish Thorne's role in episodes like Two-Face even though he wasn't the main focus in any of them.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:49:32 AM
And you seem to think me dismissing them as petty thugs is a knock against the writers.
But it was the writers’ decision to portray them that way. From the start the Jokerz were written to be punks who were wannabes. Just look at how unimpressed Bruce was when one introduced themselves as the Jokerz. And this was in the first episode.
“Joyride” and “Hidden Agenda” at least showed us hints of why certain kids might have wanted to be Jokerz. Some of them wanted a place to belong. Some wanted power. And Carter / Terminal wanted stress relief.
Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:52:36 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI mean, it is when you actively dismiss or ignore the things they wrote that don't line up with your viewpoint, yeah.
I meant, you spend about half the last page going "sure, yeah, they wrote episodes with main Jokerz villains, but those characters don't matter and don't really count," when they do count, because the writers chose to create and write those stories.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:54:51 AM
Does threat level actually matter, regarding what we're talking about?
They don't have to be the strongest villains in the setting for them to be an element the writers put clear intention behind utilizing.
IIRC, this started out as "the writers never actually focused on legacy elements in Beyond," for which the presence of the Jokerz in itself is a contradiction - at least, that's the conversation I've been having.
"The Jokerz were never Terry's most powerful enemies" feels like a different conversation entirely. It's not like most writers gauge inclusion by power level. Especially not the DCAU writers, tbh.
Going back, this is the same issue some of the other instances brought up: "yes, there was an episode about Mr. Freeze, but he retired int he end and Blight defeated him" doesn't really discount the "there was an episode about Mr. Freeze" part of the situation, for instance. "Yes, there was an episode about Ra's, but he was pathetic in it," neither. Nor, "yes, Joker got an entire movie, but Terry made him look bad at the very end."
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:00:54 AM
That doesn't really contradict my point either. I never said they made it the most major part of the show. I only said that the idea that they avoided it is patently false, because it is.
Generally speaking, by all appearances, if they had a good idea for a plot with a returning villain, they would try to develop it. Some they left on the cutting room floor, several they didn't. If they had plots for other things, they would use those.
But I don't think we can say they were specifically trying to shun the original cast, not if they did pursue those good ideas they had with that cast in the first place.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:03:36 AM
You did. But you also used the word "avoid" (you even bolded it), and I would again iterate that that's probably not the best descriptor for the situation.
I don't think it's fair to say they were avoiding anything. They used what they thought was right for the story and themes they were going for, whether it be a new concept or a returning concept.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:06:42 AM
I also disagree that the idea of using older ideas is inherently lazy. Novelty isn't good simply for the sake of being novelty. What exactly is lazy about the Mr. Freeze episode, for instance?
Also, going back to the Jokerz, they would themselves probably count as a "Beyond" version of a rogue.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:10:48 AM
Because..?
Legacy Characters aren't, in and of themselves, a lazy concept. In fact, in a sitaution where you have a story that spans decades, they can be a valuable means of establishing throughline between the eras the story spans, and a means of showing that the earlier characters had a tangible effect on later characters.
Ehh, it comes off as presuming a very specific (and to be frank, fairly disparaging) viewpoint, and then assuming the writers shared that viewpoint because you have that viewpoint, which is why I made a point of bringing up examples of them not doing that in the past few pages.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:13:05 AM
Remember that there's far more ways of writing a Legacy Character than just creating a carbon copy and slapping the same name on it, also. There's no reason to assume that's the only way such a thing can be done - in fact, I would go as far as to say it's kind of a conclusion jump to think that them utilizing legacy elements would have to look that way, given the quality of the writing that Beyond delivered.
Just look at The Jokerz. Look at how Terminal, leader of (one group of) the Jokerz, was specifically designed to be the literal opposite of Jack Napier in almost every way, and not just for show: they used that to deliver a very different kind of story as a result.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:21:07 AM

I already addressed that, actually:
Or in short: the Jokerz were a big part of Season 1, then a different gang of counter culture teenagers were given the same role in Season 2, and then the show backed off of the counter culture teenage gang idea almost entirely.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:27:09 AM