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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1701: Aug 10th 2025 at 9:38:07 PM

Though one of the things that made Batman Beyond great was that it specifically avoided rehashing past villains too much or coming up with legacy villains for old rogues. The comics of course went all in on that, and they are worse for it.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. It's certainly what Serum Lake thinks, but I think Serum Lake has a bit of a problem with perceiving villains and supporting casts more as gimmicks than as active parts of the setting. It goes somewhat without saying that one of the best episodes in the entire series (Meltdown) was about a returning villain and their attempts in vain to adapt to the future setting.

Besides, Beyond didn't avoid bringing villains back. The writers tried several times to do so iirc, they just didn't get most of their ideas for such off the ground, so it's more that they just didn't get around to it before the show got cancelled.

We did ultimately did still get Ra's, Bane, Freeze and Joker back (in multiple forms, even, if you include there being an entire cultlike gang devoted ot his memory) even so.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 10th 2025 at 9:46:08 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1702: Aug 10th 2025 at 10:21:17 PM

I did say “too much” not “not at all”

At least when the old rogues did come back there was an underlying message that all of them are relics who no longer have any place in the future. Freeze’s new suit can’t match Blight. Bane is a comatose wreck. Ra’s is ultimately exposed as an old man whimpering in fear of death. And the Joker can’t handle this new Batman.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2025 at 1:24:19 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1703: Aug 10th 2025 at 10:31:30 PM

At least when the old rogues did come back there was an underlying message that all of them are relics who no longer have any place in the future

That's kind of tenuous.

Freeze's loss to blight, especially, wasn't written with a "he can't handle the new crop of villains" vibe to it, and imo that's a really reductive way to refer to how that episode was written.

Likewise, Ra's is always written as a guy who can't handle the inevitability of death - that's not unique to Beyond. And it's definitely a stretch to say that the Joker's city-wide rampage was meant to boil down to him not being able to hack it against Terry - the whole point of the ending was that Terry was challenged but had ways to attack Joker that Bruce didn't, not to show Terry was too good for Joker to deal with.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 10th 2025 at 10:34:05 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1704: Aug 10th 2025 at 11:04:16 PM

In the original BTAS Ra’s did at least seem like he really cared about Talia. But in BB his true selfish and fearful nature was exposed.

And Terry’s advantage over the Joker was that, unlike Bruce, Terry is able to heckle someone. That’s why the Joker couldn’t handle Terry in the end.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2025 at 2:05:57 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1705: Aug 10th 2025 at 11:20:22 PM

And Terry’s advantage over the Joker was that, unlike Bruce, Terry is able to heckle someone. That’s why the Joker couldn’t handle Terry in the end.

I'm aware of that. It's still bluntly ignoring the entire rest of the movie to reduce what happened to "Joker couldn't hanlde Terry."

Joker could handle Terry, which is why his scheme got to the point of being a Near-Villain Victory. He just lost in the end, as bad guys do.

The scene where Terry defeats Joker is very iconic, but it's not the only thing that happened in the film.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 10th 2025 at 11:22:43 AM

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#1706: Aug 10th 2025 at 11:24:04 PM

And every time they brought a classic rogue back, they gave them a story that was meant to end their arcs, while also having meaning for Terry. The comics felt like they were bringing back old rogues for the Fanservice. Compare Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker to the Joker story in Batman Beyond (Rebirth).

Re: Freak Lab Accident, while there are several who could fall into that (Blight, Big Time, Earth Mover), they're usually either tragic cases, or just made a bad person more dangerous

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1707: Aug 10th 2025 at 11:42:35 PM

(Blight, Big Time, Earth Mover)

All three also have interesting caveats:

  • Blight's transformation isn't due to an accident or even due to the nerve gas (at least not directly). Instead, it's an unexpected side effect of his treatment for said nerve gas exposure.

  • Big Time's is an accident and is unexpected since no one knew what the growth hormone Cerestone — intended for plant growth — did to animals. It's not a "Freak Accident" though since a later episode shows that the effects have become known and can be replicated. Cerestone was what Ronny Boxer used to mutate that one dog into a giant monster in "Ace in the Hole".

  • Earth Mover's...just didn't take place in a lab per se. The catalyzing properties of the chemicals that empowered Earth Mover could in theory be duplicated since Bruce analyzed the sample and figured out how it worked. So like the above the "Freak Accident" aspect is also downplayed.

In all three cases people know how the transformations worked. In the second case it was even deliberately repeated.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2025 at 2:45:52 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#1708: Aug 11th 2025 at 6:46:42 AM

Also Bane appeared but wasn't really the villain of the episode. Even counting him: Freeze, Bane and Ra's are three episodes out of 52. They weren't the norm or even very often appearing.

Joker getting a movie is probably the biggest example of bringing back an old school villain for the sake of it.

The Jokerz are the only real legacy characters I can think of: sometimes they are mooks and sometimes actual problems (Max's first episode/joyride). Oddly their rival gang was based on a hero: Mr Terrific.

-

As to that video, I'd like more BB and I want to like it but it's mostly meh to me. Terry sometimes sounds okay but Bruce is nothing like Conroy. Not really sold on the style of the suit with the hardlight(?) wings and weapons or that it can do anything imaginable. What? Did Bruce install a power ring?

Edited by dcutter2 on Aug 11th 2025 at 3:00:42 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#1709: Aug 11th 2025 at 6:48:49 AM

> What? Did Bruce install a power ring?

hes batman of course he somehow built and forged his own batring

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1710: Aug 11th 2025 at 8:43:03 AM

And every time they brought a classic rogue back, they gave them a story that was meant to end their arcs, while also having meaning for Terry. The comics felt like they were bringing back old rogues for the Fanservice.

Sure? There's a difference between not bringing the rogues back specifically for fanservice and specifically avoiding bringing back returning characters.

GamerSlyRatchet Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#1711: Aug 11th 2025 at 8:54:04 AM

I'm pretty sure Terry encountering kaiju Killer Croc in the sewers was from Neo-Gothic. That arc was a shame since it started to rehash so much DCU stuff in general compared to its superior predecessor, Neo-Year. I liked Kyle, at least.

Edited by GamerSlyRatchet on Aug 11th 2025 at 10:54:40 AM

Latest blog update (November 5th, 2022).
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1712: Aug 11th 2025 at 7:32:59 PM

[up][up][up][up]Even the times the Jokerz were the main villains of episodes, they were pretty underwhelming.

  • Scab in "Joyride" quickly goes drunk with power after hijacking the experimental military airship. But the real threat isn't even him, it's the fact that said ship's reactor is going critical and it needs to be shut down asap.

  • Carter / Terminal in "Hidden Agenda" is pretty scary and clever. But he's still doing nothing more than targeting another student just for getting a higher test score. If anything he's another example in this series of adults screwing up youths.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#1713: Aug 11th 2025 at 8:53:02 PM

Oh yeah, how long was Starro controlling Supes? It seemed more like a recent thing right?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1714: Aug 11th 2025 at 8:59:18 PM

It's never stated how long Starro had control over Superman. Long enough to breed a lot more Starros, but we don't know how long it takes for the Starro species to multiply like that. Real life starfish only take a few months grow from a larva to an adult starfish.

Supes didn't visibly age during his possession. We saw in the flashback that he looked the same. Part of that may be due to Kryptonians aging slower than humans, but it still seems like it wasn't that long.

DCAU Supes has bad luck with alien parasites. Unity, the Black Mercy, Starro...

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:03:40 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1715: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:06:55 PM

[up][up][up] I think "the Jokerz were underwhelming" is something of a YMMV thing. The writers certainly didn't intentionally write them to be underwhelming. Terminal especially is taken fairly seriously.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#1716: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:09:39 PM

The first time we see them, they were a bunch of idiot kids that got called out on being wannabes. Some idiot with a gun is dangerous, but still an idiot.

Wake me up at your own risk.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1717: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:12:03 PM

The Jokerz are ultimately petty thugs. Small wonder Mr. J was unimpressed when he came back.

The Jokerz themselves are nowhere near the threat the Joker was. Still, the fact that there are disaffected youths who worship the Joker of all people is just one of the signs that Gotham City has decayed morally.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:15:02 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1718: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:14:24 PM

[up][up] And the next time we see them they nearly blow up the city, and the time after that their leader is practically a horror movie villain. The writers of Batman Beyond clearly didn't go "welp, here's their first impression, now we're never going to write them any other way."

Batman Beyond put a lot of effort into painting the bleakness of the corruption and deterioration of Gotham society through all the different things we see - particular in youth culture (since it was a youth culture focused series): into a city where gangs run wild, corrupt officials run policy, and the youth barely know what to do so much that joining an anarchic group who idolized the city's greatest criminal was practically commonplace.

Much like the Splicers (who came later) The Jokerz weren't just pinup badguys for Terry to knock down, but a symbol of how far the city was fallen, such that even the youth were falling apart with it. Especially in earlier episodes, the idea with them was that they were everywhere, a gang with cells all over the city, at least until Return of the Joker was made and they more solidified into a specific group of specific individuals.

So yeah, I'd also say dismissing them as just petty thugs is reductive to what the writers were trying to do with them as well.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:17:03 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1719: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:16:35 PM

They are petty thugs. But they are also symptoms of a greater problem with Gotham City.

In "Joyride", the Jokerz gang hijack the dangerous fighter craft and...well, go on a joyride to cause random havoc. Only Scab shows a more dangerous and ambitious side as he grows more attached to the ship's power. Notably, he's ready to ditch the Jokerz whom he only ever saw as a crutch in favor of the ship which he considers a crutch "with muscle".

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:18:56 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1720: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:17:57 PM

What I'm getting at is that if they're written as a reflection of the state of the city, then the idea that they were written as a throwaway thing is inaccurate.

If anything, given the variety of their appearances, the intent seems to have been to use them as a group that could be a source of a number of different kinds of threats/stories.

That said, they were eventually replaced by Splicers - who were effectively the same sort of idea - in Season 2. And then then Season 3 noticeably dialed way back on the "teenage gangs" part of the Gotham setting, so both of those groups effectively went into remission until Return of the Joker.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:21:06 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1721: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:20:48 PM

What variety? They only show up as the main baddies in two episodes, both in Season Two. They also don't show up that often in other episodes either.

Edited by M84 on Aug 12th 2025 at 12:21:37 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1722: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:21:53 PM

You yourself noted that they were often used as petty thugs throughout the first season. Then those two specific episodes featured two very different Jokerz Big Bads who thus delivered two very different types of stories.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1723: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:22:51 PM

Even then they were mostly background noise. They were just part of the setting and almost never took center stage.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1724: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:23:28 PM

Again:

Then those two specific episodes featured two very different Jokerz Big Bads who thus delivered two very different types of stories.

I don't really know what you have against acknowledging that the writers of Beyond actually did write episodes that featured the Jokerz as main threats, but that's something that did actually happen and it's not really a matter of debate.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 11th 2025 at 9:25:52 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#1725: Aug 11th 2025 at 9:25:47 PM

I'm just saying that the Jokerz being the baddies of two episodes with different kinds of plots is kind of stretching the term "variety".

You make it sound like the Jokerz were this recurring villain with a bunch of different episodes to their name.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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