New Ultimate Marvel Universe Project

Ambar Sonof Deshar

I'd argue that a new reader could easily jump into a book and what to see where it's going, as long as it firmly establishes where it's been. The way to get someone really invested in a book thats been running for a while is to make them think "Wow! I wonder how things got to this point in the story?" and then go pick up the previous trades. When the book references past events and builds up characterization, this is easily done.

Now, as you've already mentioned, what's to stop the continuity from getting confusing and out of whack again? The solution isn't that complicated: keep it simple. Don't have a half dozen different books set in the same "Ultimate Universe", just have 1 (maybe 2, but start with 1). Then there is only so much continuity that a new reader needs to know. If you keep everything in a nice, organized formate that is well collected in tpbs, then any new reader should be able to go back and read all the old issues with little trouble.

Trades are the way most people read comic these days, so I'm not too concerned with whether or not somebody gets everything that is going in the book just from picking upon issue 157 at random, so long as they get interested in it, and know just enough from reading the issue to wonder what got the characters to that point and seek out the trades to find out how.

I made this thread to get people involved in making an improved Ultimate Universe and i come back to people arguing about rape and trying to say i wanted to just bring back the old Ultimate Universe... The fuck happened?!

Anyway, I liked the Ultimate Universe but it had a lot of flaws, it was by no means perfect. My biggest problem with it was they had an amazing opportunity to do cool things that they squandered. I think it could have been done better so i want to see how we can do at it.

That was a Flame Bait, and I fell for it. But it's over, so Let Us Never Speak of This Again. My proposal was at the post #60. Instead of reinventing the wheel, we can simply undo that thing that several fans do not like (not my case, but who doesn't like some great crossover event?), and go in some other direction.

Okay just got into this discussion, surprise that most of it is an arguement over whether or not the characterization of the heroes are good (spoilers: only in Ultimate Spider-Man and Fantastic Four). But now that we are getting back on track, here’s my critique on Grigorll suggestion of pulling an Infinite Crisis on the Ultimate Universe.

• Why not prevent the existence of the Avengers? The Ultimates, as much as I hate to admit it, are an alternate version of the Avengers. Sure killing the prime version of the Ultimates will erase every other versions of the Ultimates from existence; but it wouldn’t get rid of all Avengers, and whose to say a version of that team will take its place to stop The Maker. I think a smart guy like him would use his super science to find the Prime version of the team (perhaps Avengers B.C.) and try to kill that group so that no Avengers of any universe will ever exist to stop him forever. Than again, this is Reed Richards we are talking about here: the worlds dumbest smartest man. Not to mention the teenage Ultimate Universe version of him who somehow caused a major catastrophe on an alternate Earth just by sending a harmless probe; so I guess its not out of character for him to recreate the original Ultimate Universe (somehow) and try to prevent the Ultimate heroes from existing.
• A problem that persist with the Ultimate Universe is its slow and confusinf time span in story. I mean, seriously what the fuck!?! Between the span of the first Ulimate Spider-Man comic (2000) and Ultimatum (2009), we are supposed to accept that everything that happens all took place within a year (specifically 2002 or 2004). Suffice to say, this fucked timespan which can’t decide what year the stories are happening in and how long these heroes are active will definitely confuse the reader getting into the comic; as well as come off as outdated and not relevent to any new readers getting into the series. Unless the writers of this new universe intend to do a time skip or a sort of chronological period piece which lampoons on the events that happened durinf the 2000s.
• Why the fuck would the X-Men want to even save Magneto? This version of the character is a real piece of shit and based heavily on Osama bin Laden. The Ultimate X-Men trying to prevent his execution, is the comic equivalent to a group of Muslim American who suffered Islamicphobia and trying to combat against it through activism, codemning extremist actions and attempting to build trust with people . . . only to try to save the life of the asshole who instigated said Islamphobia by killing a shit load of people. Maybe they are only doing it to prevent any escalation in Human/Mutant relation or some bad future which convince the team to save Mags. Either way, the fucker should die and focus on the X-Men dealing with a new version of the Brotherhood which parellels ISIS (cause that is the logical continuation for a post Magneto bin Ladin world).
• Next is Ultimate Spider-Man. I say grow Peter up to college age and have him join SHIELD as the Ultimate Spider-Man since the whole series have been shaping Peter up into becoming a SHIELD agent. Maybe use him as an idealistic counter thesis to the other more cynical members of the Ultimates, somewhat similar to when Faith joined Unity
• Ultimate Fantastic Four should continue the premise of the comic in having the team using science to try and improve the world. Maybe have them go on an adventure innWakanda convincing T’Challa to be open with their technology or enncountering Diablo. Either way, I would like it to explore the whole Ben/Sue relationship sonce that is actually an interesting change. And in a subversion to the original story, Reed doesn’t immidiately go evil after being cucked by his best friend. But what does that leave with the Maker who ISN’T going to be a prominent villain in UFF, well you will see.
• Now the problem I have with the original Ultimates is that it failed at being a modern update of the Avengers. It started out good in the first volume, making them a government sanctioned team, having them come together for personal gains rather then the ol’ heroes sticking together cliche, and the Hulk battle being planned so to give the team the need publicity boost. Those are all good spin on the classic Avenger story. And then we get to the second half of the volume which was when the series starts to make a lot of the characters unlikable jackasses and turn into Millar’s Author Tract as to why American governments and politics suck. I have in past discussions voiced my complaints as to how much I hate the take of these characters (sans Stark), but for the latter I don’t mind the series putting a political spin on the Avengers adventures just at least try to make it based on classic Avengers stories. Volume 2 attempt it with its take on the Master of Evil, but by the end of it it just makes the Ultimates as the real villains of the story and that “evil” team as the underdog freedom fighters trying to protect their home rather then trying to take over the world. Gets worse with the third volume which wasted the whole Ultron plot when it could of been a perfect allegory for the US use of drones. So if this return of the Ultimate Universe happens, the Ultimates should be a chronilogical period piece on the 2000s culture that lampoons all the past events but with an Avengers spin on it (2008 Depression will have a plot involving the Maggia (and possibly Wonder Man), the drones controversy snd Syria crisis will have Ultron involved, police brutalities can be incorporated with a remake of the Korvac Saga). As for Magneto, he will be killed off already because this is really an open and shut case. I mean if they rules Bruce Banner guilty for all the deaths Hulk caused (granted they faked his death but still), they are definitely going to execute Magneto immidiately since he don’t have to how split personality excuse.
• Finally, there should be an event called Ultimate Conqueror. For the record I want to make this event as a way to show Marvel writers how to lampoon and discredit the Trump Presidency the right way, cause what they did with Trump MODOK and Secret Empires was just cringe worthy. Basically after the Maker’s plan failed, he just fucked right off into the future of the ultimate universe; specifically the 41st Century. There, Reed basically saw how much of a mess the future is and decided to fix it with his genius. Eventually he abandons the identity of the Maker and gave himself the name Kang in correlation to his title as ruler of the 41st Century of a grand utopian society built up from the rubbles of a post apocalyptic future. This older version of Reed is pleased that he have created this empire all by himself, but yet feels hollow that his old world (21st century) is still a piece of shit timeline. So Kang (the older Reed) decided to use his time machine to go back in time to conquer the 21st century believing he can make the Ultimate Universe great again the same way he did it with the 41st Century. Suffice to say the Ultimates don’t want that leading into a grand scale invasion from the future.

So yeah those are my improvements on your suggestion. Personaliy I would of just make a whole new universe; which is actually what I am working on along with a new DC Universe:

I don't think that Comic-Book Time is much of a real problem: yes, it is weird if you stop to think about it, but then again, it's a problem of all the superhero genre. And yes, remaining tied to old events may be a problem, but not really that much. The Cold War ended 28 years ago, there's at least two generations who never heard about it other than as past history, so you would think that Watchmen should be a forgotten and obsolete comic... and yet, here we are.

And there is a problem with starting a new ultimate universe from scratch: many of the complaints can be simplified as "They Changed It, Now It Sucks!". It may be argued that the problem was a certain and specific change, but how can you be sure that an equally reimagined version of a known character would not suffer the same problem? And if you stay too close to the original and only make cosmetic changes, how can you prevent the "It's the Same, Now It Sucks!" complaints? Simple answer: don't reinvent the wheel, stick to something that works, and just use the common tricks of the market to improve things.

As for the proposals, yes, of course that Magneto is a monster and deserves to die. I'm not proposing that the X-Men plea for his life because I endorse him, but because it's the reaction that would better fit the character definition of Charles Xavier, who is always willing to propose the redemption and second chances path (even with Ultimate Magneto). Of course, all the others would give him several "What the Hell, Hero?", and ultimately prevail. Thing is, what made the Ultimates so great in the begining was not just that the were alternate-universe Avengers (at that point, before the film and the MCU, the Avengers were not the juggernaut franchise they are nowadays), but how they dealed with underlying conflicts where Both Sides Have a Point. What to do with Magneto sounds like a conflict where both sides can give well-reasoned explanations, and go back to the roots.

• Of course that, once Miles intervenes and saves Ultimate Peter, things can go in any direction from there on. College and SHIELD are certainly good options. But, before that, Nick Fury comes to recruit him for the Ultimates , the after his 18º birthday. Next day, Peter finds himself leading Luke Cage, Iron Fist, White Tiger and Bucket Head... oh, wow, it was All Just a Dream.
• As for the Maker, having him stranded in the Ultimate universe, alongside the FF, would lead to a Good Reed vs. Evil Reed conflict, which surely sounds interesting, doesn't it?

edited 28th Nov '17 7:30:02 AM by GrigorII

Okay, here are some things I have to disagree on

1) My complaint wasn't regarding Comic Book Timeline in the Ultimate Universe, but the fact that said universe couldn't decide what year said comics takes place. Basically, the Universe insisted that the events all happen on a specific year (somewhere in the early 2000s) and it all happened within a month with no Comic Book Timeline incorporated. Ultimate Spider Man, supposedly started somewhere around 2000 and 2001 which means everything supposedly happened from that year up to 2002. But as later comics in the line come, they make tones of references to things that are current to the release of the comic which contradicts the chronological year the comic is supposed to takes place in. This actually ruins the immersion of reading said books as, unlike the main universe, it does not run on Comic Book Time (like Watchmen which you referenced) and its meant to be close to our reality as possible.

I'm okay with comics set in a specific time period. What I am not okay with is it putting in tech, events and references that shouldn't exists in said time period (like when Wasp mentions the Spongebob Movie which was out in 2004).

2) This quote you made:

3) Okay then, I understand. So why not focus on the characters reaction after Magneto dies rather than making a drag out story arc focusing on trial itself. I think the characters hearing Professor Xavier talk shit about Magneto after his death will be a better way of highlighting his hypocrisy as he basically openly admits it after Magneto is dead and won't be able to here. Plus the controversy the Ultimates will face after Mags death will set up its overarching plot involving the team dealing with negative publicity from the public in becoming this Military Police force that enforces peace by killing anybody that opposes them.

4) Nah him leading a team with other child soldiers is actually a good idea to explore. I mean whose to say Peter was the only teenage meta human Fury convertly recruit for his super human hit squad?

5) Have you not read my comment regarding the Ultimate Conqueror event? If its anything like the previous Ultimate Comics events (Ultimate Galactus Trilogy, Ultimate Power, Ultimatum) the story line will be a crisis story involving ALL the characters in the Ultimate Universe. So of course Reed will encounter Maker; just a version of him who took refuge in the far future and became this universe equivalent to Kang the Conqueror.

Well, there would be a very good way to combine both premises about Magneto. Nick Fury informs Xavier and the X-Men that Magneto will be executed for crimes against humanity, Xavier gives a Big "NO!" and say that it is wrong, Wolverine agrees with Fury that he must be killed, they start a debate, and Xavier gives a long speech explaining his reasons to think that Magneto should be pardoned and get a second chance. Nick Fury, who stayed silent the whole time, finally says "Have you finished? Because we have executed him 20 minutes ago".

As for Ultimate Conqueror, the idea is great, but sounds a bit too similar to the Maker arc in Ultimate Comics: Ultimates (in fact, when I first read it I thought that it was a pragmatic adaption of Kang, before they went ahead and actually used Kang). We would need to work on how exactly does Reed pretend to conquer the 21 century, and make it different. No future city, and no destruction of Washington DC.

Actually, Ultimate Conqueror is meant to be an Ultimates remake of the Kurt Busiek Avengers storyline The Kang Dynasty which saw the time travelling villain takeover the 20th Century and defeat the Avengers in a full scale war. Said storyline was loosely adapted in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. And since this is an alternate continuity from the original Ultimates Comics and knowing Kang's history with alternate versions of himself (see Celestial Madona and Avengers Forever) it is possible for Kang to be a future version of Reed from the 41st Century who amass his own utopian empire and went back in time to rule the 21st.

So yeah, not going to make any promises on him not destroying Washington DC (as well as other countries) which would eventually lead to the world making an unconditional surrender to him.

I'd just really like an adaptation/reboot/Ultimate Universe that can successfully combine elements like the mutants with the rest of the Marvel Universe. Maybe through some Arc Welding, giving the MU a fresh start by distilling all the most important elements and going in new directions.

For example, what if instead of becoming Phoenix due to some ill-defined fiery space god, Jean Grey fuses with a Cosmic Cube or something? Or what if the Terrigen Bomb that Black Bolt set off was what caused mutants to start manifesting their powers, making The Inhumans and mutants the same race? Or what if Weapon X is secretly bankrolling supervillains like Norman Osborn and A.I.M., in order to gain a monopoly on super-powered people?

Just brainstorming a few ideas.

Just to be clear — is this tread about creating a new Ultimate Universe for the Marvel Universe, or revamping the already existing Ultimate Marvel universe?

It was initially about a new reimagining of the Marvel Universe. Then it got derailed by someone saying it would be better to bring back the old Ultimate Marvel Universe. Then it got derailed further when someone said the original Ultimate Marvel Universe was perfect as it was which... sparked a long argument.

If we're going to start up the thread again I think it'd be best to only discuss the original Ultimate Marvel in terms of ideas we think should be included in our new one.

I think the real point of a new continuity is the opportunity to use all the old toys in new ways, so even when discussing characters that are great the way they are we should be talking about changing them. Although there still is such a thing as changing a character too much, like if I said our new Spider-Man should be from an alien race of Spider-People I wouldn't blame anyone for shooting that down.

Speaking of 'changing a character too much', what about 'reinventing' a character by returning them to their roots? For example, bringing Drax the Destroyer back to his original characterization as a former human turned cosmically-powered angel of death with a grudge against Thanos, and combining that with his Guardians of the Galaxy characterization as a Comically Serious Literal-Minded Boisterous Bruiser.

(I'm not sure whether this post and the previous one belong more to the "Reinvention Ideas For DC/Marvel Characters" thread or this one, but I'm posting on this thread because I don't want to see it die.)

One thing that's sort of bugged me is Cyclops's constant angst about not being able to control his powers. So what if, in this new Ultimate Universe, he's taught how to do so by that other Marvel character with Eye Beams as a superpower, Ikaris of The Eternals?

Here's an idea: what about a universe where superpowers are not just toned down, but completely absent instead? No superpowers, no supersciences, no magic, no aliens, no time travel, none of that. Instead of "Spider-Man", name the comic "Peter Parker", with all his cast: aunt May, uncle Ben, Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, Flash Thompson, Kong, Liz Allen, Miles Morales, Anya Corazon, Harry Osbourne, etc; as well as their respective parents (George Stacy, Norman Osbourne, Jefferson and Rio, Aaron, etc), some other teenagers that we can add (Kamala Khan, Riri Williams, Kitty Pryde, etc.) and some others in the setting (Nick Fury, Wilson Fisk, Otto Octavius, Tony Stark, Charles Xavier, etc). Of course, no superpowers does not mean no adventures or no danger, not at all.

For example, let's start by the beginning. Uncle Ben is killed, but things do not end with Peter learning about responsibility. Who killed him? Who could possibly have a reason to kill such a nice guy? George Stacy will say "The police is on it", but that won't be enough for Peter. Or for his friends. Superpowers or not, they will not stop until they find the killer. And from then on, suspects, clues, investigations, interrogations, confessions... all that stuff.

I may even do it myself, once I'm done with "Ultimate Secret Wars".

That reminds me of that one comic, Powerless, but extended to an entire line of ongoings instead of a miniseries. Also DC's young adult books, even though most of them focus on characters who were Badass Normals originally.

About the purpose of the thread, I think the main point of an Ultimate Universe is to update old icons for modern times. If we're to invent a New Ultimate Universe, it needs to focus on that. If the original Ultimate Universe was equivalent to All-Star DC Comics, this should be our Earth One.

Edited by DBZfan102 on Aug 21st 2020 at 4:17:19 PM

Speaking of ideas that would fit just as well in the Reinvention ideas thread, can we talk about characters like Magneto and his backstory? He's over 100 years old, and yet looks like a Silver Fox. But changing it in the regular universe would mean changing decades of story and changing the very basis of the character. But if we were to reboot him, on the other hand...

My idea is this: In order for the character to be recognizably Magneto, he needs to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist survivor of a racially-motivated massacre widely considered a horrible crime agaisnt humanity by the entire world.

There's a character in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance named Monsoon. He's a survivor of the Khmer Rouge. He has long white hair and magnetism powers. Reminds you of Mags, doesn't it? Assuming Magneto was 10 years old when the Khmer Rouge took power, he would be roughly 55 years old now. Old enough to have two children, and old enough to look the way he does in the comics now. They'd just have to remember to draw him with Asian features, but that'd be it.

And if you think making him a Khmer Rouge survivor instead of The Holocaust wouldn't be as dramatic, just watch The Killing Fields and remember that the real version was worse.

Yeah, I think that Magneto is one character that could use a good reboot. After all, the 1990s X-Men show never specified whether Erik was a Holocaust survivor, just that he grew up during a war. Granted, this was more because it was a children's show, but it still goes to show that, tragically, what happened to Magneto can happen anytime, anywhere.

And Magneto being a Khmer Rouge survivor is loads better than changing him into a spoiled sociopath with no sympathetic qualities. Yes, that was how Lee and Kirby originally portrayed him; no, it's not a particularly compelling characterization.

By the way, if Magneto's backstory is changed, what about Doctor Doom's? As originally written, he suffered persecution as a child for being Romani — would it be wise to update this backstory, for example making him a survivor of The Yugoslav Wars?

Edited by ClancyGardener on Aug 21st 2020 at 6:19:40 AM

Latveria is inside Yugoslavia, right? He probably would have lived through it given he must be at least older than 30. Admittedly, Latveria is a fictional country and its location could change if we wanted to avoid having two villainous war survivors in The 'Verse.

I don't think that their backstories are all that important in comparison to their characterization, because while they're share some similarities, they also differ in some very interesting ways.

Something that bugs me about both Magneto and Doom's more recent characterization is that, well, they're not villains anymore. Any of Doom's more horrible acts can be easily excused thanks to Doombots, while Magneto has been Flanderized from a outright brutal bastard to being just as "heroic" as the X-Men (whatever that counts for nowadays).

Therefore, I think that the best way to differentiate Mags and Doom is to not only make both villains (albeit sympathetic ones) again, but to make them foils to each other. For example, they might dislike each other because they consider the other villain to be a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist, but for different reasons — Magneto thinks Doom is just a prideful and petty despot obsessed with proving his so-called superiority to others to stroke his fragile ego, while Doom thinks Magneto is a mere Misanthrope Supreme who uses his horrible childhood as an excuse to bully and persecute anyone he considers his inferior (whether they be mere homo sapiens or his own lackeys).

The irony is that they're both right, but they're also oblivious of the fact that they're also describing themselves.

I suppose you're right. Especially because Doom really doesn't think about his crappy childhood anymore (outside of his mom). "Doom is above such petty navel-gazing!"

...Though, now I have this funny image of Doom and Magneto playing Misery Poker over whose childhood sucked the most.

Edited by DBZfan102 on Aug 23rd 2020 at 9:09:42 AM

Now I'm wondering about the best way to reconcile Magneto's Chris Claremont interpretation as a Tragic Villain trying to do what's best for his people and his original Lee-Kirby depiction as a power-hungry Jerkass who cares about nobody but himself (the interpretation also used in New X-Men and Ultimate Marvel).

Not everyone remembers that in Magneto's pre-Claremont appearances, he was outright abusive to everybody in his Brotherhood (constantly belittling the Toad, guilt-tripping Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch) and had no compunctions about killing a bunch of teens. Maybe that last part can be toned down a bit (after all, Magneto famously had a Villainous BSoD when he realized that he almost killed a 13-year old Kitty Pryde), but I personally think that it would be fascinating to see Magneto portrayed as a brutal man twisted by a brutal childhood, deluding himself that his Knight Templar actions are absolutely justified.

My view of him is this: If ever in the process of writing Magneto you are able to look at this panel◊ and say "that's still accurate", you're on the right track. Well Intentioned Knight Templar with shades of Tautological Templar thrown in. That's how Real Life makes most of its villains.

I think the reason I love that panel so much is the self-awareness, that the irony of Magneto's actions versus the reason he does those actions is actually pointed out by the one person from whom it would hurt most to hear. There came a point in the original Ultimate Universe where Magneto just came off as a Generic Doomsday Villain. Part of that was from shifting the focus of his rage to the deaths of his children, which made the events of Ultimatum seem like a gigantic overreaction. What keeps Magneto interesting - whether he's being a crazy terrorist or otherwise - is his motivations, and those shouldn't be tossed by the wayside.

On to more broad topics, what should be the level of science (and magic) in the setting? The original Ultimate Universe had some heavy use of Clarke's Third Law in place. Not to mention the issue of the origin of the X-gene...

Edited by DBZfan102 on Aug 26th 2020 at 7:05:51 AM

I actually mentioned something like this on that other thread, because I personally feel that with all the crazy, fantastical cosmic stuff in the Marvel Universe, having actual magic seems kind of unnecessary. The MCU already tends to make supernatural characters a little more "scientific", but still magical — after all, the Asgardians use both magic and super-science, while Dr. Strange wields magic along with a "just very powerful" cosmic artifact (The Time Stone). I would go just one step further, and explain away all magic as "cosmic powers" or "sufficiently advanced technology".

I kind of feel the opposite. Saying "It's not magic, it's just a supremely powerful cosmic artifact" feels like a Distinction Without a Difference to me.

Although maybe difference sources of power should have different spheres of influence and limitations.

Do we include Celestials and the like in this new universe? Is Doctor Strange present? How does he do things? These are important questions. The "power level" of our universe, so to speak.

How about returning Doctor Strange to his roots as a supernatural consultant? Something like an Alternate Company Equivalent of John Constantine (or more accurately, Doctor Occult). Not capable of making reality his bitch with a wave of hands, but still capable of pulling the wool over otherdimensional beings' eyes with enough cleverness. This would also prevent him from being used as a living Deus ex Machina like his 616 counterpart has been on occasion.