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Oct 15th 2017 at 11:54:16 AM

Ambar Sonof Deshar[up]

I'd argue that a new reader could easily jump into a book and what to see where it's going, as long as it firmly establishes where it's been. The way to get someone really invested in a book thats been running for a while is to make them think "Wow! I wonder how things got to this point in the story?" and then go pick up the previous trades. When the book references past events and builds up characterization, this is easily done.

Now, as you've already mentioned, what's to stop the continuity from getting confusing and out of whack again? The solution isn't that complicated: keep it simple. Don't have a half dozen different books set in the same "Ultimate Universe", just have 1 (maybe 2, but start with 1). Then there is only so much continuity that a new reader needs to know. If you keep everything in a nice, organized formate that is well collected in tpbs, then any new reader should be able to go back and read all the old issues with little trouble.

Trades are the way most people read comic these days, so I'm not too concerned with whether or not somebody gets everything that is going in the book just from picking upon issue 157 at random, so long as they get interested in it, and know just enough from reading the issue to wonder what got the characters to that point and seek out the trades to find out how.

DrZadkiel Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Nov 9th 2017 at 1:50:33 PM

I made this thread to get people involved in making an improved Ultimate Universe and i come back to people arguing about rape and trying to say i wanted to just bring back the old Ultimate Universe... The fuck happened?!

Anyway, I liked the Ultimate Universe but it had a lot of flaws, it was by no means perfect. My biggest problem with it was they had an amazing opportunity to do cool things that they squandered. I think it could have been done better so i want to see how we can do at it.

Fuck you i do what i want! ~ Dr. Zadkiel
Nov 9th 2017 at 3:27:23 PM

That was a Flame Bait, and I fell for it. But it's over, so Let Us Never Speak of This Again. My proposal was at the post #60. Instead of reinventing the wheel, we can simply undo that thing that several fans do not like (not my case, but who doesn't like some great crossover event?), and go in some other direction.

Ultimate Marvel: the best comics of all time
BigK1337 Comedic Super Troper from Detroit Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Comedic Super Troper
Nov 27th 2017 at 10:34:59 PM

Okay just got into this discussion, surprise that most of it is an arguement over whether or not the characterization of the heroes are good (spoilers: only in Ultimate Spider-Man and Fantastic Four). But now that we are getting back on track, hereís my critique on Grigorll suggestion of pulling an Infinite Crisis on the Ultimate Universe.

  • Why not prevent the existence of the Avengers? The Ultimates, as much as I hate to admit it, are an alternate version of the Avengers. Sure killing the prime version of the Ultimates will erase every other versions of the Ultimates from existence; but it wouldnít get rid of all Avengers, and whose to say a version of that team will take its place to stop The Maker. I think a smart guy like him would use his super science to find the Prime version of the team (perhaps Avengers B.C.) and try to kill that group so that no Avengers of any universe will ever exist to stop him forever. Than again, this is Reed Richards we are talking about here: the worlds dumbest smartest man. Not to mention the teenage Ultimate Universe version of him who somehow caused a major catastrophe on an alternate Earth just by sending a harmless probe; so I guess its not out of character for him to recreate the original Ultimate Universe (somehow) and try to prevent the Ultimate heroes from existing.
  • A problem that persist with the Ultimate Universe is its slow and confusinf time span in story. I mean, seriously what the fuck!?! Between the span of the first Ulimate Spider-Man comic (2000) and Ultimatum (2009), we are supposed to accept that everything that happens all took place within a year (specifically 2002 or 2004). Suffice to say, this fucked timespan which canít decide what year the stories are happening in and how long these heroes are active will definitely confuse the reader getting into the comic; as well as come off as outdated and not relevent to any new readers getting into the series. Unless the writers of this new universe intend to do a time skip or a sort of chronological period piece which lampoons on the events that happened durinf the 2000s.
  • Why the fuck would the X-Men want to even save Magneto? This version of the character is a real piece of shit and based heavily on Osama bin Laden. The Ultimate X-Men trying to prevent his execution, is the comic equivalent to a group of Muslim American who suffered Islamicphobia and trying to combat against it through activism, codemning extremist actions and attempting to build trust with people . . . only to try to save the life of the asshole who instigated said Islamphobia by killing a shit load of people. Maybe they are only doing it to prevent any escalation in Human/Mutant relation or some bad future which convince the team to save Mags. Either way, the fucker should die and focus on the X-Men dealing with a new version of the Brotherhood which parellels ISIS (cause that is the logical continuation for a post Magneto bin Ladin world).
  • Next is Ultimate Spider-Man. I say grow Peter up to college age and have him join SHIELD as the Ultimate Spider-Man since the whole series have been shaping Peter up into becoming a SHIELD agent. Maybe use him as an idealistic counter thesis to the other more cynical members of the Ultimates, somewhat similar to when Faith joined Unity
  • Ultimate Fantastic Four should continue the premise of the comic in having the team using science to try and improve the world. Maybe have them go on an adventure innWakanda convincing TíChalla to be open with their technology or enncountering Diablo. Either way, I would like it to explore the whole Ben/Sue relationship sonce that is actually an interesting change. And in a subversion to the original story, Reed doesnít immidiately go evil after being cucked by his best friend. But what does that leave with the Maker who ISNíT going to be a prominent villain in UFF, well you will see.
  • Now the problem I have with the original Ultimates is that it failed at being a modern update of the Avengers. It started out good in the first volume, making them a government sanctioned team, having them come together for personal gains rather then the olí heroes sticking together cliche, and the Hulk battle being planned so to give the team the need publicity boost. Those are all good spin on the classic Avenger story. And then we get to the second half of the volume which was when the series starts to make a lot of the characters unlikable jackasses and turn into Millarís Author Tract as to why American governments and politics suck. I have in past discussions voiced my complaints as to how much I hate the take of these characters (sans Stark), but for the latter I donít mind the series putting a political spin on the Avengers adventures just at least try to make it based on classic Avengers stories. Volume 2 attempt it with its take on the Master of Evil, but by the end of it it just makes the Ultimates as the real villains of the story and that ďevilĒ team as the underdog freedom fighters trying to protect their home rather then trying to take over the world. Gets worse with the third volume which wasted the whole Ultron plot when it could of been a perfect allegory for the US use of drones. So if this return of the Ultimate Universe happens, the Ultimates should be a chronilogical period piece on the 2000s culture that lampoons all the past events but with an Avengers spin on it (2008 Depression will have a plot involving the Maggia (and possibly Wonder Man), the drones controversy snd Syria crisis will have Ultron involved, police brutalities can be incorporated with a remake of the Korvac Saga). As for Magneto, he will be killed off already because this is really an open and shut case. I mean if they rules Bruce Banner guilty for all the deaths Hulk caused (granted they faked his death but still), they are definitely going to execute Magneto immidiately since he donít have to how split personality excuse.
  • Finally, there should be an event called Ultimate Conqueror. For the record I want to make this event as a way to show Marvel writers how to lampoon and discredit the Trump Presidency the right way, cause what they did with Trump MODOK and Secret Empires was just cringe worthy. Basically after the Makerís plan failed, he just fucked right off into the future of the ultimate universe; specifically the 41st Century. There, Reed basically saw how much of a mess the future is and decided to fix it with his genius. Eventually he abandons the identity of the Maker and gave himself the name Kang in correlation to his title as ruler of the 41st Century of a grand utopian society built up from the rubbles of a post apocalyptic future. This older version of Reed is pleased that he have created this empire all by himself, but yet feels hollow that his old world (21st century) is still a piece of shit timeline. So Kang (the older Reed) decided to use his time machine to go back in time to conquer the 21st century believing he can make the Ultimate Universe great again the same way he did it with the 41st Century. Suffice to say the Ultimates donít want that leading into a grand scale invasion from the future.

So yeah those are my improvements on your suggestion. Personaliy I would of just make a whole new universe; which is actually what I am working on along with a new DC Universe:

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Nov 28th 2017 at 7:29:39 AM

I don't think that Comic-Book Time is much of a real problem: yes, it is weird if you stop to think about it, but then again, it's a problem of all the superhero genre. And yes, remaining tied to old events may be a problem, but not really that much. The Cold War ended 28 years ago, there's at least two generations who never heard about it other than as past history, so you would think that Watchmen should be a forgotten and obsolete comic... and yet, here we are.

And there is a problem with starting a new ultimate universe from scratch: many of the complaints can be simplified as "They Changed It, Now It Sucks!". It may be argued that the problem was a certain and specific change, but how can you be sure that an equally reimagined version of a known character would not suffer the same problem? And if you stay too close to the original and only make cosmetic changes, how can you prevent the "It's the Same, Now It Sucks!" complaints? Simple answer: don't reinvent the wheel, stick to something that works, and just use the common tricks of the market to improve things.

As for the proposals, yes, of course that Magneto is a monster and deserves to die. I'm not proposing that the X-Men plea for his life because I endorse him, but because it's the reaction that would better fit the character definition of Charles Xavier, who is always willing to propose the redemption and second chances path (even with Ultimate Magneto). Of course, all the others would give him several "What the Hell, Hero?", and ultimately prevail. Thing is, what made the Ultimates so great in the begining was not just that the were alternate-universe Avengers (at that point, before the film and the MCU, the Avengers were not the juggernaut franchise they are nowadays), but how they dealed with underlying conflicts where Both Sides Have a Point. What to do with Magneto sounds like a conflict where both sides can give well-reasoned explanations, and go back to the roots.

  • Of course that, once Miles intervenes and saves Ultimate Peter, things can go in any direction from there on. College and SHIELD are certainly good options. But, before that, Nick Fury comes to recruit him for the Ultimates , the after his 18ļ birthday. Next day, Peter finds himself leading Luke Cage, Iron Fist, White Tiger and Bucket Head... oh, wow, it was All Just a Dream.
  • As for the Maker, having him stranded in the Ultimate universe, alongside the FF, would lead to a Good Reed vs. Evil Reed conflict, which surely sounds interesting, doesn't it?

edited 28th Nov '17 7:30:02 AM by GrigorII

Ultimate Marvel: the best comics of all time
BigK1337 Comedic Super Troper from Detroit Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Comedic Super Troper
Nov 28th 2017 at 4:34:30 PM

Okay, here are some things I have to disagree on

1) My complaint wasn't regarding Comic Book Timeline in the Ultimate Universe, but the fact that said universe couldn't decide what year said comics takes place. Basically, the Universe insisted that the events all happen on a specific year (somewhere in the early 2000s) and it all happened within a month with no Comic Book Timeline incorporated. Ultimate Spider-Man, supposedly started somewhere around 2000 and 2001 which means everything supposedly happened from that year up to 2002. But as later comics in the line come, they make tones of references to things that are current to the release of the comic which contradicts the chronological year the comic is supposed to takes place in. This actually ruins the immersion of reading said books as, unlike the main universe, it does not run on Comic Book Time (like Watchmen which you referenced) and its meant to be close to our reality as possible.

I'm okay with comics set in a specific time period. What I am not okay with is it putting in tech, events and references that shouldn't exists in said time period (like when Wasp mentions the Spongebob Movie which was out in 2004).

2) This quote you made:

And there is a problem with starting a new ultimate universe from scratch: many of the complaints can be simplified as "They Changed It, Now It Sucks". It may be argued that the problem was a certain and specific change, but how can you be sure that an equally reimagined version of a known character would not suffer the same problem? And if you stay too close to the original and only make cosmetic changes, how can you prevent the "It's the Same, Now It Sucks" complaints? Simple answer: don't reinvent the wheel, stick to something that works, and just use the common tricks of the market to improve things.
So let me get this straight, you think its risky for anybody to create a new universe for the Marvel characters out of fear of criticism regarding changes or a lack thereof; yet continue to support continuing an existing universe whose whole purposes is making changes to characters (drastic changes, that is). . . . okay.

3) Okay then, I understand. So why not focus on the characters reaction after Magneto dies rather than making a drag out story arc focusing on trial itself. I think the characters hearing Professor Xavier talk shit about Magneto after his death will be a better way of highlighting his hypocrisy as he basically openly admits it after Magneto is dead and won't be able to here. Plus the controversy the Ultimates will face after Mags death will set up its overarching plot involving the team dealing with negative publicity from the public in becoming this Military Police force that enforces peace by killing anybody that opposes them.

4) Nah him leading a team with other child soldiers is actually a good idea to explore. I mean whose to say Peter was the only teenage meta human Fury convertly recruit for his super human hit squad?

5) Have you not read my comment regarding the Ultimate Conqueror event? If its anything like the previous Ultimate Comics events (Ultimate Galactus Trilogy, Ultimate Power, Ultimatum) the story line will be a crisis story involving ALL the characters in the Ultimate Universe. So of course Reed will encounter Maker; just a version of him who took refuge in the far future and became this universe equivalent to Kang the Conqueror.

"Who needs sanity when you have unlimited power!" Now in (Very Active) Tumblr Form
Nov 28th 2017 at 6:03:47 PM

Well, there would be a very good way to combine both premises about Magneto. Nick Fury informs Xavier and the X-Men that Magneto will be executed for crimes against humanity, Xavier gives a Big "NO!" and say that it is wrong, Wolverine agrees with Fury that he must be killed, they start a debate, and Xavier gives a long speech explaining his reasons to think that Magneto should be pardoned and get a second chance. Nick Fury, who stayed silent the whole time, finally says "Have you finished? Because we have executed him 20 minutes ago".

As for Ultimate Conqueror, the idea is great, but sounds a bit too similar to the Maker arc in Ultimate Comics: Ultimates (in fact, when I first read it I thought that it was a pragmatic adaption of Kang, before they went ahead and actually used Kang). We would need to work on how exactly does Reed pretend to conquer the 21 century, and make it different. No future city, and no destruction of Washington DC.

Ultimate Marvel: the best comics of all time
BigK1337 Comedic Super Troper from Detroit Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Comedic Super Troper
Nov 28th 2017 at 6:26:23 PM

Actually, Ultimate Conqueror is meant to be an Ultimates remake of the Kurt Busiek Avengers storyline The Kang Dynasty which saw the time travelling villain takeover the 20th Century and defeat the Avengers in a full scale war. Said storyline was loosely adapted in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. And since this is an alternate continuity from the original Ultimates Comics and knowing Kang's history with alternate versions of himself (see Celestial Madona and Avengers Forever) it is possible for Kang to be a future version of Reed from the 41st Century who amass his own utopian empire and went back in time to rule the 21st.

So yeah, not going to make any promises on him not destroying Washington DC (as well as other countries) which would eventually lead to the world making an unconditional surrender to him.

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