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Broken Base Cleanup

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Consensus has arrived at four criteria for Broken Base:

  • A sustained conflict: short-term conflicts that are quickly forgotten don't count.
    • Corollary: Conflicts about upcoming works based on previews, trailers, and speculation are short-term by definition and should be cut on sight.
  • An exceptionally vicious conflict: a simple disagreement where the various factions have little problem co-existing doesn't count.
  • Two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions within the fanbase: a tiny Vocal Minority that won't shut up about their pet peeve but is vastly outnumbered by more reasonable fans doesn't count. Nor does a silent majority that likes what they like (or hates what they hate) but doesn't make a big deal about it.
    • Corollary: the fanbase must itself be large enough to support two or more large and entrenched factions. This is more likely to be the case with broad fandoms (e.g. "Star Wars fans" or "anime fans") as opposed to narrow ones (fans of one particular work such as a single film or video game with no sequels, adaptations, or spinoffs).
  • Little to no middle ground: Cases in which the vast majority of the fandom just plain doesn't care too much about the disagreements of a few fringe elements don't count.

    Original first post 
Edit: Thread consensus has arrived at four criteria for Broken Base, which I will copy-paste here so that they're always easily visible in the first post:

  • A sustained conflict: short-term conflicts that are quickly forgotten don't count.
    • Corollary: Conflicts about upcoming works based on previews, trailers, and speculation are short-term by definition and should be cut on sight.
  • An exceptionally vicious conflict: a simple disagreement where the various factions have little problem co-existing doesn't count.
  • Two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions within the fanbase: a tiny Vocal Minority that won't shut up about their pet peeve but is vastly outnumbered by more reasonable fans doesn't count. Nor does a silent majority that likes what they like (or hates what they hate) but doesn't make a big deal about it.
    • Corollary: the fanbase must itself be large enough to support two or more large and entrenched factions. This is more likely to be the case with broad fandoms (e.g. "Star Wars fans" or "anime fans") as opposed to narrow ones (fans of one particular work such as a single film or video game with no sequels, adaptations, or spinoffs).
  • Little to no middle ground: Cases in which the vast majority of the fandom just plain doesn't care too much about the disagreements of a few fringe elements don't count.

Broken Base is ostensibly about deep-seated arguments within a fanbase. Okay, fine. That's a thing that happens. The problem is that many entries are written in such a way as to side firmly with one side over the other, to the point where it's a thinly-veiled excuse for complaining. They tend to spend the majority of space laying out one side's argument for why a particular entry or element in a franchise is the Worst Thing Ever(TM), and then wrap up saying something like, "...but there are some people who like it."

Example: In YMMV.Mass Effect 2:

* Broken Base: This game is either the best of the entire series filled with tons of interesting character stories and an awesome main plot or it's a massive filler Idiot Plot rife with plot holes, a horribly done Unexplained Recovery, limited RPG elements and many unnecessary retcons and changes to the lore of the series. There's not a whole lot of in-between for fans, though it's worth noting that this criticism mostly came as the years went by, during the time of it's release it was , it was covered in high ratings.

That's... just plain not the case. Broad consensus is that ME2 is the high point of the series. There are certainly folks who prefer ME1, some vociferously, but it's only a very vocal minority who tear into 2 the way the writer of this entry does.

(Mod edited to streamline, previous text in folder)

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 19th 2025 at 9:31:48 AM

harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#1801: Apr 21st 2022 at 12:30:45 AM

On YMMV.Max Payne 3:

  • Broken Base: The changes made by Max Payne 3 are divisive to say the least.
    • The addition of a cover mechanic to the game has been criticized by some for making to game too similar to other contemporary third-person shooters.
    • There's also the abandonment of the stylistic underpinnings of the series, such as the histrionic, pseudo-poetic monologuing, interactive environmental elements and the all important mythological/religious/pop-cultural symbolic subtext which gave the original games their richness.
    • Another problem with the third game is the plot. The second game resolved all the loose ends and finished the story on a bittersweet note, with Max reminiscing, "I had a dream about my wife. She was dead, but it was alright." The third game overrides it all, throwing Max into a new set of troubles and turning him into a depressed alcoholic for no reason.
    • As well as the replacement of the first two games' graphic novel-style cutscenes with more traditional cutscenes with stylistic, TV-screen style static cuts (though the New Jersey levels invoke the earlier style). The fact that many of them can't be skipped makes it worse. There was also Max's change in haircut and facial hair.
    • A smaller one is Max's constantly changing appearance, especially with those who consider Sam Lake's constipated grimace the definitive look for Max. Some refuse to play the sequels because of the lack of Sam Lake's face in them.
    • The game's extremely scripted nature can also get on the nerves, as instead of always being in control of Max for most of a level, there are plenty of cutscenes that place the player in certain positions in shootouts, leaving little room for player freedom to decide how to tackle encounters when they're put in a slow-motion shooting section.

While this game is certainly divisive enough to qualify for this trope, the points raised here are just complaints about the game, and not really showing a divided fanbase.

captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#1802: Apr 21st 2022 at 3:24:53 PM

[up] Yea that's just a list of complaints. Cut

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1803: Apr 23rd 2022 at 5:05:31 PM

[up][up][up] Regarding the DID example. It seems to be saying that the debate has a lot of complexity and nuance within the fandom, with lots of different opinions. It doesn't look like Broken Base to me.

You said you've just added the entry. How long as this debate existed in the fandom? Is it new, or has it been sustained for some time? Broken Base requires a fandom civil war style split (highly divisive and triggering to mention), with no middle ground, to have been sustained for six months or more after the release of the triggering episode/work.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1804: Apr 26th 2022 at 10:27:01 AM

I can't edit at the moment due to a suspension but I found an example of 1-sided Broken Base on War for the Planet of the Apes

As highly acclaimed as the movie was, there were still some things that didn't sit too well with everyone. Perhaps the biggest fan criticism of all was how in the end, there was no final, conclusive war between the apes and humans for control of the planet. While there was a skirmish between the two sides at the beginning of the film, the movie's conclusion only featured two human factions taking each other out. Given how much the trailers seemed to be telling the audience that War would be THE ultimate battle for supremacy between apes and humans for the fate of the world, it's understandable why some fans would be miffed that both apes and humans ultimately don't have a final showdown to determine the planet's fate.

Red's Heel–Face Turn and Preacher's death has also caused debate, as many were hoping Preacher would fulfill the role left vacant by Malcolm from Dawn, only to instead serve as a Red Herring instead, with Red being the one to play the role of a former antagonist redeeming himself when some had wished for him to remain an antagonist to symbolize why some of the apes sided with the humans, especially since Preacher had a better motive to change sides more than Red did.

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1805: Apr 30th 2022 at 8:58:11 PM

There's a Base-Breaking Character entry in YMMV.Shikimoris Not Just A Cutie. However, the entire page was created after the anime just premiered. In fact, there was no pages for the manga despite being out for years. Should BBC entry be commented out until the anime run finished?

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1806: May 1st 2022 at 10:07:03 AM

Hm. Given the entry is using the anime to claim that it's made things even worse, I'd say it needs to wait the requisite six months from the air date of the anime to do that. It's tricky, given the manga is older, but the entry (as written) does feel like an attempt to get around the time-delay. Hopefully, that's not the intention and it's just badly worded.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#1807: May 2nd 2022 at 10:27:57 PM

This example was recently added to Psych

  • Broken Base:
    • Season 8 in general tends to be divisive. Many fans lament the extreme Flanderization of Shawn and Gus, the departure of Chief Vick, and her replacement.

While it is true that Season 8 is not as good as prior seasons, this entry only talks about the poorly received things and doesn't bring up the thoughts of people on the other side of the base. This feels like a Seasonal Rot entry, and this is already mentioned there.

Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#1809: May 22nd 2022 at 6:27:30 AM

A Broken Base subbullet on YMMV.Cities Skylines does not discuss the other side's thoughts.

  • Paradox has decided to add a launcher to the game after an update, despite the fact that Steam is already a launcher itself. Some players outright called the launcher spyware in their negative reviews, and unsurprisingly uninstalled the game in the process. Criticisms include the following:
    • When you start the game for the first time after the update, you are not given the choice about if you want to install the launcher or not, or where the launcher will be installed, or an ability to cancel the process.
    • The launcher installs without the users authorization due to the above reason. Worse still, it installs to a location outside the game directory, effectively making it malware in the process.
    • The store page on Steam doesn't mention it at all, causing unalert players to install it none the wiser.
    • Steam doesn't manage the launcher, so that if players uninstall Cities: Skylines, the launcher remains unaffected.

MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1810: May 22nd 2022 at 2:16:50 PM

[up] Yeah Paradox attracts some angry reactions but this is just complaining. Cut it.

Edited by MinisterOfSinister on May 22nd 2022 at 10:17:01 AM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1811: May 22nd 2022 at 5:27:07 PM

[up][up] The other Broken Base example on the page also seems to be misuse, it looks to have been added based on pre-release information with no indication that it kept being divisive for more than six months after release.

  • The Sunset Harbor DLC brought much debate when it was leaked and later announced. While the free update providing overground metro to unmodded users (the metro transit system was often criticized as a poorly-developed mechanic, and the otherwise decent Mass Transit DLC was also criticized for not focusing on improving the fairly barren metro transit system at the time) was met with almost universal praise, the downloadable content is the subject of debate, with some players feeling that essential updates or much wanted expansions to mechanics such as crime or airports would be more deserved than a DLC revolving around fishing and coaches. The less coherent theme of the DLC also bring back memories of the After Dark expansion, often viewed as an example of Early-Installment Weirdness in terms of DLCs, with many users demanding a more straightforward DLC like the other expansions.

Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#1812: May 23rd 2022 at 8:24:00 PM

[up][up][up]Cities: Skylines has zero-DRM options: it's called playing the console versions (Xbox One, PS4, and the Switch).

Edited by Nen_desharu on May 23rd 2022 at 11:26:22 AM

Kirby is awesome.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1813: May 23rd 2022 at 11:49:43 PM

Console versions can have DRM too. It's actually a big headache for publishers since consoles are now moving to disc-less versions, apparently.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
JankyKong He's finally back to kick some... wait from a Secret Base on the Moon Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
He's finally back to kick some... wait
#1814: Jun 1st 2022 at 10:44:38 AM

YMMV.Titanic The Legend Goes On and YMMV.The Legend Of The Titanic both have entries under Broken Base regarding arguments over which movie is worse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the fact that the people involved in said arguments obviously are not fans of the films automatically disqualify them?

Your melody still remains in this room and it rings
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1815: Jun 1st 2022 at 10:45:30 AM

[up]Neither have great reputation to warrant BB.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1816: Jun 1st 2022 at 10:46:27 AM

Yeah, those people aren't part of any base, and BB should be about the work itself. That just seems more like a very weird, hatedom version of Fandom Rivalry.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1817: Jun 1st 2022 at 11:30:30 AM

You guys should know both of these movies have been reviewed by the Nostalgia Critic in the past, and the arguments probably came from there.

And I agree, there never seems to have been much of a fandom to form a broken base, just a hatedom fuelled by the Nostalgia Critic.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1818: Jun 1st 2022 at 11:32:27 AM

Eh, I wouldn't blame Doug this time. Both movies are also under SBIH and he's not the only critic to talk about them.

The movies aren't considered bad because NC reviewed them, they're considered bad for making a mockery of the Titanic with nonsensical plotlines and talking animals and happy endings.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Wafer Troy Verde from the Banjo-Tooie world, meditating (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Troy Verde
#1819: Jun 1st 2022 at 12:02:20 PM

YMMV.Tetris:

  • Broken Base:
    • The Tetris Guideline and other efforts by the Tetris Company to establish a particular image for Tetris. Sure it's good enough for casual players, and some argue that it helps curb Sturgeon's Law when it comes to games carrying the Tetris license, but competitive players largely dislike what TTC does with the series, as well as the Double Standard of games like TGM getting rejected due to deviating strongly from the TTC's vision of Tetris while Obvious Betas like Tetris Ultimate get the OK just because they meet the TTC's requirements.
    • Rewarding T-Spins: Does this new avenue of bonuses provide a fair incentive to try difficult tricks, or does it go against the spirit of the series?
    • The Super Rotation System: Is it a fair Anti-Frustration Feature that makes for more creative gameplay, or is it too convoluted to understand or a Game-Breaker?
    • Is the "goal" system in the Marathon mode of modern Tetris games a clever take on the "clear lines to level up" system, or is it an unbalanced mess for effectively punishing Tetrises?
    • Ubisoft's deal with the Tetris Company, which meant EVERY digital version of Tetris, including all Nintendo's far superior versions, were pulled from digital storefronts by the end of 2014, leaving many people only able to play a game which was considered incomplete at best and an Obvious Beta at worst. It took until 2017 for SEGA, when releasing Puyo Puyo Tetris, to spot a legal loophole to get ANY version other than Tetris Ultimate to any global storefront, using a method Nintendo itself wasn't able to. The deal has since expired, leaving this to be more of historical relevance.
    • Which line of "classic" Tetris games is better: Nintendo's or Sega's? Similarly, Nintendo's vs. Tengen's version of NES Tetris.
      • This has bled into the audiences for the Nintendo Switch, with both companies having released a Tetris game on it, with Tetris 99 for Nintendo and Puyo Puyo Tetris and Puyo Puyo Tetris 2 for Sega.
    • The "Infinity" mechanic, also known as infinite spin/rotation. To summarize: When a piece lands, there is a small delay before it locks into place, and moving or rotating a piece will reset that lockdown timer. It's routinely been called a Game-Breaker and "it's fine, it doesn't affect more competitive modes" and almost nothing in between, and Edit Wars and Justifying Edits have broken out a few times whenever the mechanic is discussed on This Very Wiki.

Do people care about Tetris this much to begin with so disagreements within the fanbase can happen?

Guys how cool would it be if Super Megaforce had a green ranger...
MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1820: Jun 1st 2022 at 12:56:53 PM

[up] I have no idea but it's a big game for sure.

RacattackForce (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1821: Jun 1st 2022 at 1:15:29 PM

[up][up] I'm not 100% sure if all of those are big debates within the fanbase, but I know through osmosis that some of them absolutely were/are. Not sure why the Ubisoft thing is there though, since I don't believe any hardcore Tetris player was particularly happy that all the good online versions of the game were gone for five years. Though I suppose a broken base of "hate vs. indifference" is still a broken base.

Edited by RacattackForce on Jun 1st 2022 at 4:17:40 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#1822: Jun 1st 2022 at 1:28:37 PM

Those running in official competitions no doubt care enough about such things to have strong opinions about them.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1823: Jun 1st 2022 at 3:15:52 PM

[up][up] "Hate vs. indifference" isn't a Broken Base, people who are "meh" on an issue are unlikely to get into heated arguments about it. I'd agree with cutting the Ubisoft thing since the example is 100% complaining with no mention of another side.

The first example about the Tetris Guideline also feels biased.

harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#1824: Jun 1st 2022 at 8:02:22 PM

There's this example in YMMV.Doctor Who S 38 E 10 The Timeless Children (Folderizing for the sake of spoilers)

    Timeless Children Example 
  • Broken Base: Oh Lord. Possibly the single most divisive episode in the entire history of Doctor Who. Mainly over the revelations / retcons about the Doctor's origin.
    • Some fans felt that this was an exciting new development, adding a new layer of intrigue to the Doctor's history and opening the possibility for the show to go in bold new directions by delving further into the Doctor's past and revisiting the potentially infinite number of prior incarnations and their forgotten history. Many fans loved the way that the show finally resolved the question of the prior faces of the Doctor seen in "The Brain of Morbius", and allowed them to co-exist with the regeneration limit. Lines in other stories that strongly implied, or even outright stated, that Hartnell's Doctor was the first incarnation could simply be chalked up to the First Doctor simply being the first incarnation to be referred to as the Doctor (though this paradoxically ignores that only five episodes ago the Fugitive Doctor was already calling herself the Doctor, and had a Police Box TARDIS, to boot!). Notably, Steven Moffat used a similar justification to retroactively place the War Doctor between the Eighth and Ninth Doctors without any change to the numbering of the incarnations, by saying the the War Doctor should be unnumbered because he refused to be known as "the Doctor" throughout his life. Some fans also welcomed the change to the canon in the sense that it made the Doctor far more powerful than she was in the past, and examined the possibilities that she could (possibly) use her regeneration energy on a whim to replicate the same sort of destruction the Tenth, Eleventh, and Twelfth Doctors wrought to their surroundings during their regenerations.
    • Other fans felt that this was a cheap attempt to rewrite the entire history of the show, that the revelations made the Doctor less, not more interesting and undermined the character, who had previously been seen as a shining example of The Unchosen One, by making them no longer just an ordinary Time Lord who became different through their own choice. Many fans were deeply opposed to the idea of William Hartnell's incarnation no longer being the "first" Doctor, some even labelling it as "disrespectful". Some also felt that showing a pre-Hartnell incarnation of the Doctor already acting like the familiar character undermined the significance of First Doctor's Character Development from amoral traveller to hero. Many also felt that the potential for introducing more past Doctors was an unwelcome, cheap attempt to set up future spin offs. Resolving the "Morbius Doctors" was derided by some as excessive Fan Wank.
    • Yet more fans took a position somewhere in the middle, being not necessarily opposed to the changing of the show's canon, but feeling it was handled poorly, deriding the lenghly exposition scene of the Master explaining it all to the Doctor as boring, and not giving the Doctor very much agency in a story that is essentially about how they had agency taken away from them and how that was terrible.

It's absolutely a valid example given all the controversy, but I'm not sure about the formatting: Each "side" of the fandom on this one problem is written as a separate bullet, which I don't think works given the format rules this site has. There's also how much of a Wall of Text that first example is, that at least needs to be cut down.

Tenebrika she/her (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Not war
she/her
#1825: Jun 13th 2022 at 9:24:50 AM

So, the time limit has expired, and YMMV.Encanto now has this entry:

  • Broken Base: Ever since the day the film was released, the loudest and most persistent argument among fans is whether or not Abuela did enough to deserve forgiveness for her actions. Some feel as if her remorse was genuine and that her traumatic backstory explains enough of her struggle to make her sympathetic, in addition to her seemingly applying what she learned by the film’s end. Others say that she should have received more appropriate and harsh retribution from the rest of the Madrigals, and see her quick forgiveness as not only turning her to a Karma Houdini, but also gives off an unfortunate Accidental Aesop that mental abusers should be always forgiven if and because they are family.
From what I know of the fandom, she does cause a split, and the entry does a good job of explaining why (though I suspect it's somewhat negatively skewed, or am I just being paranoid?) However, I'm not sure if there should be a Broken Base entry or a Base-Breaking Character one. I think of her as a divisive character, a Jerkass Woobie with fans arguing whether the "jerkass" part outweighs the "woobie" part or vice versa. On the other hand, the movie's ending is divisive because the narrative treats it as her redemption, and some fans think she should be forgiven, while others disagree.

What do you think?


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