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Broken Base Cleanup

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Consensus has arrived at four criteria for Broken Base:

  • A sustained conflict: short-term conflicts that are quickly forgotten don't count.
    • Corollary: Conflicts about upcoming works based on previews, trailers, and speculation are short-term by definition and should be cut on sight.
  • An exceptionally vicious conflict: a simple disagreement where the various factions have little problem co-existing doesn't count.
  • Two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions within the fanbase: a tiny Vocal Minority that won't shut up about their pet peeve but is vastly outnumbered by more reasonable fans doesn't count. Nor does a silent majority that likes what they like (or hates what they hate) but doesn't make a big deal about it.
    • Corollary: the fanbase must itself be large enough to support two or more large and entrenched factions. This is more likely to be the case with broad fandoms (e.g. "Star Wars fans" or "anime fans") as opposed to narrow ones (fans of one particular work such as a single film or video game with no sequels, adaptations, or spinoffs).
  • Little to no middle ground: Cases in which the vast majority of the fandom just plain doesn't care too much about the disagreements of a few fringe elements don't count.

    Original first post 
Edit: Thread consensus has arrived at four criteria for Broken Base, which I will copy-paste here so that they're always easily visible in the first post:

  • A sustained conflict: short-term conflicts that are quickly forgotten don't count.
    • Corollary: Conflicts about upcoming works based on previews, trailers, and speculation are short-term by definition and should be cut on sight.
  • An exceptionally vicious conflict: a simple disagreement where the various factions have little problem co-existing doesn't count.
  • Two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions within the fanbase: a tiny Vocal Minority that won't shut up about their pet peeve but is vastly outnumbered by more reasonable fans doesn't count. Nor does a silent majority that likes what they like (or hates what they hate) but doesn't make a big deal about it.
    • Corollary: the fanbase must itself be large enough to support two or more large and entrenched factions. This is more likely to be the case with broad fandoms (e.g. "Star Wars fans" or "anime fans") as opposed to narrow ones (fans of one particular work such as a single film or video game with no sequels, adaptations, or spinoffs).
  • Little to no middle ground: Cases in which the vast majority of the fandom just plain doesn't care too much about the disagreements of a few fringe elements don't count.

Broken Base is ostensibly about deep-seated arguments within a fanbase. Okay, fine. That's a thing that happens. The problem is that many entries are written in such a way as to side firmly with one side over the other, to the point where it's a thinly-veiled excuse for complaining. They tend to spend the majority of space laying out one side's argument for why a particular entry or element in a franchise is the Worst Thing Ever(TM), and then wrap up saying something like, "...but there are some people who like it."

Example: In YMMV.Mass Effect 2:

* Broken Base: This game is either the best of the entire series filled with tons of interesting character stories and an awesome main plot or it's a massive filler Idiot Plot rife with plot holes, a horribly done Unexplained Recovery, limited RPG elements and many unnecessary retcons and changes to the lore of the series. There's not a whole lot of in-between for fans, though it's worth noting that this criticism mostly came as the years went by, during the time of it's release it was , it was covered in high ratings.

That's... just plain not the case. Broad consensus is that ME2 is the high point of the series. There are certainly folks who prefer ME1, some vociferously, but it's only a very vocal minority who tear into 2 the way the writer of this entry does.

(Mod edited to streamline, previous text in folder)

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 19th 2025 at 9:31:48 AM

StateOfBedlam Since: Jul, 2015
#1726: Aug 5th 2021 at 5:17:56 AM

[up] I'm a very prolific DbD player with a lot of involvement in the community. I started playing in early 2017, several months before the oldest contributions to this page. I'm going to try and address each of these.

  • The game mostly has an excuse plot. Caring a lot about the lore is pretty niche. The devs eventually started throwing that crowd some extra bones, but most people are more concerned with gameplay. It's investment vs. indifference, if anything.

  • Somewhat valid. Veterans of the game generally agree on certain contexts where camping is okay. That is, situations where the killer has really no other choice or else they're pretty much throwing the match. Camping in contexts outside of that, you might be considered a bit of a dick - but ultimately just playing the game in a way your opponents won't like. Camping is a contentious topic, but the griefing comparison is a bit extreme.

  • Looping is just the primary form of extending the time it takes for the killer to catch you. You'd be nuts to never try to loop. I find it surreal that this was added in 2019.

  • Very old news. Most of the player base today probably don't even know this was a thing.

  • Old news

  • In my experience, Huntress was one of the best-received killers at release. For her to be the first killer named on this list is pretty funny to me.

  • Doctor was really bad, and then they made him pretty good. People still think he's annoying. I don't think his kit has been touched since this entry was added, but people also don't talk about Doctor that much anymore.

  • A rare complaint. It gets discussed when a normally talkative character is new or about to release, and then the conversation drops off.

  • Hillbilly is pretty much an expy of Bubba/Leatherface, and the entire hooking mecahnic is pretty much an homage to Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Of course the devs would jump at a chance to get the real thing. Nowadays, people mostly bring up this comparison as evidence that we can still get characters who are similar to existing killers. (For example, if someone argues we could never get Pennywise because we already have a character called The Clown, someone will point out we have two chainsaw killers.) Not very base breaking.

  • All observations outdated.

  • Outdated.

  • Outdated.

  • He did, in fact, get nerfed later. Outdated.

  • The Rift. These days, people mostly just discuss the contents of it. How good are the rewards this rift? How reasonable are the archive challenges? Criticism of the model itself is rarer now, but I wouldn't be super surprised if we could find some. I don't see it much myself though. Feels like a maybe.

  • Spirit is actually still hotly debated. All of this is still relevant, except the stuff about a rework. I don't even remember what they changed. You could remove the last two sentences and this one would be fine.

  • NOED debate is also still relevant. Nothing in this one needs to be changed.

Edited by StateOfBedlam on Aug 5th 2021 at 5:46:07 AM

Formerly KarmaMeter.
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1727: Aug 5th 2021 at 10:19:18 AM

Then, I'm going to move Spirit to Base-Breaking Character, move the hook camping and NOED examples to YMMV.Dead By Daylight, and cut the rest. If criticism of the battle pass model is rare, then it's not really base-breaking, just a small minority of people who don't like it.

MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#1728: Aug 6th 2021 at 12:16:55 PM

Should this entry under YMMV.The Angry Birds Movie be cut?

  • Broken Base: The fans in general are polarized by the teaser; one half is excited to see their favourite smartphone app game on the big screen, the other half is displeased by this destiny, though given the track record, the latter group's fears aren't entirely unjustified.

It was clearly written before the movie even came out and then was never updated, since it only talks about people reacting to the idea of the movie. And it seems to be a fans-of-the-movie vs non-fans divide.

Delibirda from Splatsville Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: I wanna be your dog
#1729: Aug 6th 2021 at 12:17:35 PM

Burn it to the ground.

Edited by Delibirda on Aug 6th 2021 at 9:17:49 PM

"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1730: Aug 6th 2021 at 12:25:44 PM

[up][up] It looks like it's about fans of the game so I wouldn't disqualify it as being "fans vs haters," but it is outdated so IDK if the movie's still base breaking.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Delibirda from Splatsville Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: I wanna be your dog
#1731: Aug 6th 2021 at 12:34:11 PM

I am a fan of the game, and I liked it.

"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
fragglelover Since: Jun, 2012
#1732: Sep 5th 2021 at 9:52:51 AM

This is on Turner Classic Movies:

  • Broken Base: In 2021, TCM introduced the series Reframed, in which certain classic films with Values Dissonance are analyzed and evaluated (Gone with the Wind for its romanticized depiction of the Antebellum South, Breakfast at Tiffany's for its use of Yellowface, etc.). The films are shown in their entirety, with the host segments at the beginning and the end of the films discussing the problematic elements of the films and what society can learn from them. TCM insists that the program was created to prevent the films from not being screened at all and becoming victims of "cancel culture", but that still hasn't stopped some people from saying that what they're doing is cancel culture because it admits to Values Dissonance (rather than excusing or denying it).

I'm not denying that it's divisive, but the way it's written feels slightly off...

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1733: Sep 5th 2021 at 11:21:17 AM

Because it barely focuses on one side of the debate, much less explain both sides.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1734: Sep 5th 2021 at 12:18:25 PM

[up][up]Yeah. Unless there is a side that do like its take on discussing the problematic values of its time, i say delete it.

ssjSega Since: Sep, 2017
#1735: Sep 6th 2021 at 7:07:25 AM

Okay, so over on the main RWBY thread, troper Wyldchyld proposed an entry for the YMMV page for the novel Before the Dawn. Here's what they have thus far for it:


  • Broken Base: Sun's controversial portrayal has polarized fans between two positions that contain very little common ground. One camp believes he is an unapologetic Adaptational Jerkass, negatively re-casting his actions in the show, and seemingly forgetting that he realized he treated his friends horribly, hence him taking them to Vacuo in the first place. This camp therefore believes the book is unfair to Sun, derailing his character and ignoring the context of Sun's actions in the show. Another camp argues that the novel addresses issues parts of the fandom had with Sun's character in the show, the difference being that the novel gives the audience an insight into his inner thoughts, how the rest of his team really feels, and how they disagree on what Sun's problem really is. This camp therefore believes the book explores in more depth issues that were hinted at, but glossed over, in the show.

We figured it'd be a good idea to bring it here and get some more feedback on the entry, see if it needs more adjustments.

What does everyone else think?

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#1736: Sep 13th 2021 at 9:46:34 PM

I would like to bring the following BB entries from YMMV.Mobile Suit Gundam SEED to this thread:

  • Broken Base: The HD Remaster has also spawned this several times over.
    • First is the matter of Nicol's death, which was retconned in the Remaster to make it appear largely accidental. In the original, he attacks Kira and dies when Kira reflexively counters. In the remake, he attacks Kira and dies when Kira dodges, because the attack carries him into Kira's sword anyway. Here's a comparison video. The base is split over whether this is an example of Adaptational Self-Defense and an attempt to make Kira less responsible for his death, or whether it's a minor choreography change that doesn't really mean anything.
    • The HD Remaster's English dub has divided fans. Aside from people upset that SEED got a second dub before several classic Gundam shows that haven't gotten any dub note , there are people who are fine with the dub having an entirely new All-Star Cast and people who would have preferred the original cast to return, finding the new performances disappointing compared to the original. In terms of production, some argue that it's an even more polished dub that features performances and pacing more consistent with the Japanese original. Others take issue with poor production quality, such as using the Japanese broadcast version instead of the BDnote , poor dialoguenote  and some strange name changes note , and certain additions to characters being made note . And then in addition to quality there's its availability; if you want to buy the Blu-ray set, it currently only comes bundled in an Ultimate Collector’s set that's priced at over US$200 or is only available for streaming on Funimation, a streaming service that has various issues. At the very least, the Ultimate Edition does also give fans the option to have both dubs, but again, it's largely gonna come down to taste and how much money one is willing to throw at this thing, especially if one wants the original in HD.

Remove or keep?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#1737: Sep 13th 2021 at 10:16:17 PM

Keep the first one, it's flamebaity enough. I'm not as sure about the second one either way, though.

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#1738: Sep 13th 2021 at 10:33:40 PM

I removed the second one as a precaution.

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1739: Sep 14th 2021 at 6:08:33 PM

The second one's probably legit, honestly, given the absurd levels of Serious Business with which some people regard dubs. I've personally heard both dubs, liked them both, and think 90 percent of that entry is They Changed It, Now It Sucks! type pedantry rather than anything legit, but just going by my experience with TV Tropes alone it's probably fairly widespread in general. The only real problem is the typical "WHINGE WHINGE WHINGE (but some people like it)" writeup style.

Edited by nrjxll on Sep 14th 2021 at 8:09:45 AM

delayedboom she/her Since: Sep, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
she/her
#1740: Sep 14th 2021 at 6:20:05 PM

[up](x4) In my opinion, everything after "people who would have preferred the original cast to return" goes into too much nitpicky detail, especially the stuff in notes. The first one looks fine as is.

We don't sweep with a broom, no~
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1741: Sep 23rd 2021 at 12:20:24 AM

On Futurama. From what little interaction I've had with the fanbase as someone who came into the show after it ended, there doesn't seem to be a lot of controversy — fandom tends to agree about which episodes are good, bad, or average. I think the revival seasons have some controversy though.

  • Broken Base:
    • The made-for-DVD Movies: Some like them for their higher stakes and their drama, but others hate them for having too many sub-plots to pad them out and for being full of retcons.

I feel like this leans more towards fans enjoying the movies, or at least enjoying some more than others (the first one seems widely loved, the rest are more contentious). Maybe it's an example? IDK.

This one could count, but it's way too biased towards negativity. I might rewrite it.

  • "Jurrassic Bark" is either loved for being a heartwrenching Tear Jerker or hated for the exact same reason.
Highly doubt this one. I feel like those who "hate" the episode say that because it's an uncomfortable watch, but agree that it's a good episode. Even those who don't love it still think it's generally good. I don't even like it that much but I know that disliking it is practically Fandom Heresy. Also they misspelled "Jurassic."

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1742: Sep 26th 2021 at 3:51:41 AM

This is on the YMMV.RWBY page as a Broken Base entry.

  • Ren's arc in Volume 7 divided viewers over its quality, in particular his sudden shift to being more obsessed with training and pushing away Nora. Proponents feel that Ren has various backstory reasons for leaning towards siding with Ironwood and being more cold (such as the existental dread about facing Salem, the fear of losing Nora to the mission or a delayed reaction to being forced to relive the traumas of his childhood), but Ren in-series never gets to explain his position and the shift in character coming off Volume 6 felt jarring for many, which also undercut the impact of Ren and Nora finally kissing this season. Volume 7's commentary would see the team admitting that Ren was meant to get such scenes, but they were pushed back to the next volume.

I've run it by the RWBY forum thread, and no-one has any recollection of there ever been a fandom war over Ren. Yes, some people don't like his character arc, but that's PSOC because fandoms never 100% like anything. He's not a character people tend to fight over.

If there are no objections, I'm going to remove the entry from the YMMV page for the above reason.

Edited to add: I removed this from the YMMV page on the 11th November 2021.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 11th 2021 at 10:52:59 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
audasious Since: Sep, 2018
#1743: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:10:50 AM

I have an issue with this entry mostly that it's very one sided and very complainy:

  • Broken Base: Lumity, the shipping of Luz and Amity as a couple. The majority of fans love the potential adorableness of the ship and Amity's flustered actions around Luz in later episodes, but there are plenty of others who are sick of the "enemies to lovers" trope. An analysis by Mikaila Turkleson note  questions why Amity developed a crush on Luz and not the other way round, given how Luz (who is already openly bisexual) was the one actively trying to befriend Amity to begin with, along with the fact that, since they met, Luz got her in trouble at school, humiliated her in front of an audience, invaded her privacy, stole her training wand and got her siblings captured by a monster. Many fans have also become increasingly frustrated at the hardcore Lumity shippers acting like being in love with Luz is the only thing Amity as a character has going for her, or it's even the only notable thing about the entire show. It even gets highlighted where fans pointed out that in every Gus centric episode or any episode that involves Gus in it, he will eventually get overshadowed by Lumity. Another complaint is that due to the toxicity of the pairing, some detractors would comment how they are falsely accused for being homophobic.
The bolded part is what I want to remove. What do you all think?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1744: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:27:10 AM

Oh God, I don't even watch this show and yet I just want to scream at seeing another "WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE (but some people like it)" entry. Kill It with Fire.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1745: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:28:22 AM

It outright says the majority of people like it, and if that's true (I'm inclined to believe it is), then it's not even Broken Base.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
audasious Since: Sep, 2018
#1746: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:29:47 AM

So should I just remove the entry or remove the bolded part?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1747: Oct 13th 2021 at 11:48:17 AM

Just kill it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#1748: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:33:06 PM

For sure I've seen a lot of pushback at Lumity shippers (and I can't disagree, the shippers often do take things way too far), but this is the fandom, rather than the show.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1749: Oct 13th 2021 at 2:45:07 PM

Oh god cut that.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

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