Broken Base Cleanup

This one has probably been kicked up by South Park, which had a stereotypically PC character declare that some other PC characters were reacting badly to Mulan due to "not addressing trans issues" despite Mulan cross-dressing as a man, confusing cross-dressing for transsexuality.

And, yeah, that last part is the crucial part here. Mulan crossdresses as a man, and she does so specifically to disguise herself, not because she particularly feels like doing so. She could be argued to have tomboy tendencies, perhaps, but being trans just because she disguised herself as a man to join the army is stretching things beyond breaking.

Optimism is a duty.

I don't think it's a true Broken Base, because I've seen the people who insist that Mulan is textually transgender as opposed to a metaphor, and they are an extremely loud but ultimately not particularly large bunch; there's certainly some trans people who personally headcanon her that way in their hearts but know not to confuse it for explicitly canon, and a lot of trans people are simply fine with settling for the relatable metaphor interpretation. Frozen (2013) has a similar problem with exaggerating the prominence of the Vocal Minority of people who interpret Elsa as an unambiguous literal lesbian because of Let It Go when it's a more general song that just happens to have a lot of Applicability to being in the closet.

Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 25th 2019 at 12:15:47 PM

It's an Alternate Character Interpretation at best, and a rather tenuous one at that.

Optimism is a duty.

This example was recently added to the Death Battle:

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• Ben 10 Vs Green Lantern very quickly became this due in part to the unceremonious way Hal won, and the lack of acceptable logic to justify it. This was to the point that the next episode of the Death battle cast spent a whole hour going over the comments and arguments, needing to bring up things that were never mentioned in the Death Battle episode itself:
  • One of the biggest things to be spotted in the comments was how it was acknowledged that the Omnitrix can transform Ben automatically if needed, and do so fast enough to react to the Big Bang, only for Green Lantern to just cut off the arm with the Omnitrix on it with no explanation about him being fast enough to do so before the Omnitrix can respond.
  • Another thing being how much they underplayed Ben's versatility and resourcefulness, Never even mentioning certain aliens that can turn invisible or intangible, or can absorb energy (like Green Lantern's constructs) outside of their name being on screen for a bit under “notable aliens”.
  • Even when the Death battle cast came out, people who saw it still weren't satisfied as there appeared to be a double standard about what was allowed for each fighter:
    • One big one being on how easily the Omnitrix or the Green Lantern ring can be removed by their opponent. On the Green Lantern side, the fact that Batman was able to casually remove the ring without Hal noticing at all was ignored due to it happening while Hal was inexperienced. Meanwhile the fact that Vilgax planned to remove the Omnitrix from Ben by cutting his arm off was enough to say the Omnitrix had no defense for getting an arm cut off, despite the fact that Vilgax never got to the point where any defense would need to kick in, had the Omnitrix itself contained with a special devise that would be without purpose if there was no defense, AND the fact that this happened in the season finale of Season 1 on the First show, when Ben was almost the most inexperienced you can get.
    • Another example of a double standard came from how they scaled Hal and Alien X. On one hand the use of the Sotobro effect was not allowed for Alien X because when it was explained, the main version of Ben wasn't in the room, just three other versions of Ben including the Future version of the main Ben and a version of Ben that (despite never even seen an alien before that day, came from a universe without an Omnitrix and was completely new to everything) reversed the destruction of the Multiverse through the use of the Sotobro effect, and a weaker alien, that came from the main Ben's Omnitrix. Meanwhile, the fact that Kilowog (a completely separate green lantern, not even a different version of Hal) was able to survive The Crisis on Infinite Earths with his ring was enough to allow Hal to be immune to Alien X's “blink and your gone” ability with his.

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Now, I checked the time and it seems to have met the 6 month period (the battle was released May 22 of this year), but it feels too much like one-sided complaining. I'm not denying that the fight itself was probably among the most divisive in the show's history, but the trope is established NOT to be used for one-sided entries.

I agree that it seems too one-sided to be valid as is. It's also very long.

YMMV.When Marnie Was There:

• Broken Base: While many people find the idea of Marnie being Anna's grandmother, trying to reach out to her granddaughter after her own death heartwarming and touching, many others felt cheated by the romantic imagery used in the promotional material and the carefully crafted "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship between the two girls before The Reveal.

This was added to BrokenBase.Steven Universe a few hours ago:

• Opinions on Ruby and Sapphire’s relationship can be varied in that there are debates whether they are actually considered a healthy relationship model to be seen as perfect in every way or if they are too codependent even with recent development. Because of the show’s theme of positive representation debates regarding this between fans can get heated in whether it was handled correctly here or not.

Ignoring that this literally has no commas at all whatsoever, I don't know/believe that the ones who think Ruby and Sapphire are unhealthy are actually that common.

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I was thinking about bringing this up here myself! This definitely isn't a view I've commonly seen people express, and the example is also sorely lacking in context, not giving any real arguments for why Ruby and Sapphire might be codependent or why fans of the show would want to argue about it.

It was a sentiment much more common in the past and which I used to agree with, but their later depictions have done a lot to remedy it.

I think it was shown in the baseball episode in which the two can't resist being apart for so long. Moved away by the time the two infiltrated the Human Zoo.

So... should we remove it?

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I think it certainly counts if we're allowing historical examples, maybe modify it to reflect that.

Ok, remember that Ben 10 vs. Green Lantern post on DEATH BATTLE! that was removed due to one-sidedness? It was re-added (by a different troper) with the edit reason being "putting this back in. If its a Base Breaking match up, then it fits here." I'm pretty sure it was agreed that the entry was too one-sided. Also, Broken Base rules state that there must be a divide within the fandom for it to count. Again, the battle is one of the most divisive in the show's history, so it can legitimately have an entry surrounding the fight and its research, it's just that this current entry is too in favor of Ben. There should be an argument in favor of Hal and an argument in favor of Ben, but we don't have one yet. Do I have the go-ahead to remove the entry from the page?

Edited by ssjSega on Dec 29th 2019 at 7:03:11 AM

Ben vs. Green Lantern could definitely be a valid example, but you're right that it's currently completely one-sided, so I removed it.

I am intensely suspicious of any entry that focuses around a single episode of a long-running series. In my experience, they almost never actually divide the entire fanbase of that series in a sustained, serious way.

That statement includes just about any Death Battle entry. If the base is divided on that many different issues, then it stops being a Broken Base and starts being "different people have different opinions on stuff," which is not a notable Audience Reaction.

Edited by HighCrate on Dec 29th 2019 at 8:30:07 AM

That doesn't sound right. Why should it matter how many instances of Broken Base there are in a work? If there are many, wouldn't that mean the work is divisive in general?

And if there are many base breaking elements to a show, I think that is a lot stronger than merely "different people having different opinions".

Optimism is a duty.

YMMV.Victorious has several examples that probably aren't Broken Base.

YMMV.Battlefield V:

• Broken Base: Quite a few weapons and vehicles have a very polarized fanbase either loving it or hating it, not limited to...
  • The JU-88 and other bombers are hated on by most of the community because of base-rape that would happen just after a game starts, although this has been remedied with delayed plane spawns on most maps. In fact, it was very common to see bombers topping the scoreboards before the Dec 4th update, when they recieved a nerf.
  • Playing Medic. While this is a choice of class preference, medic is considerably harder to play now that the class is given a weak SMG that can't shoot farther than 40 meters, making it a class one can only use in covered areas and under team support, where in Battlefield 1 the medic had a semi-automatic that can easily shoot higher than 100m. SMGs would eventually be buffed in the Dec 4th update, but they still struggle outside of close range firefights, and still do get outperformed at times even within that range.
  • The game fanbase can be divided into 3 groups, the reason being the various controversy the game is engulfed in prior to launch.
    • People who don't mind the extra customization options, and point out that previous entries in the series have always taken liberties with historical accuracy for various reasons.
    • Players (including prominent streamers) who just want to play the game and would rather focus on gameplay-related issues rather than the culture war.
    • Those who point out the inclusion of playable women as "evidence" of a social justice takeover, and painted EA/DICE's mockery of sexists as "attacks on all gamers".
  • The Community being split between using bipoded machine guns in prone to defend positions. In other games like Squad and Rising Storm, going prone with a machine gun is the definite way to use the gun, as that's how they're used in real life. While this is a clearly valid tactic, players who constantly die to prone machine gunners complain that this playstyle is overpowered and promotes camping.
  • The Community over large maps and small maps. While traditionally larger and smaller maps were favorites since Battlefield 1942 (and ever since), you might see people who absolutely detest the large maps...
  • The attrition system, which restricts ammo capacity and allows only partial health-regeneration. Although attrition was initially well-received for encouraging more tactical team play, it has gradually become hated by half of the community. This system discourages lone-wolf tactics and forces dependence on competent medic and support players, who aren't always present in public matches. Overall, while some like it for encouraging more tactical game system, others disliked for leaving players with inadequate supplies and adding unnecessary busywork in a chaotic game.
  • The Fliegerfaust anti-air rocket launcher has become a recent source of ire for players who favour pilot combat, with some seeing it as overpowered and too easy to use, while other players that favour infantry combat see it as a welcome respite, as before its introduction, planes were able to harass infantry with very little ability for the infantry to respond besides woefully underpowered AA cannons or a lucky Panzerfaust or PIAT shot.

It seems that some of the entries here are the case of Tier Induced Scrappy or Scrappy Mechanic, whilst the hatred against the inclusion of women as customizable characters has either the second group being a "middle ground" (thus negating the entry) or the third group would hate the game entirely because of their own misogyny (which makes them no longer count as part of the "base", and thereby relegated to Periphery Hatedom).

Found this on YMMV.Magic The Gathering under Broken Base:

• With the release of War of the Spark: Forsaken, fans of the Nissa and Chandra relationship were hit with a complete retcon of their relationship to a "platonic" sisterly love. Accusations of outright biphobic erasure were quick to hit Twitter and cause many to swear off future Magic written works. Wizards issued a formal apology to the Magic community for the Nissa/Chandra storyline a week after the book's launch. Greg Weisman put out his own apology that indicated a certain level of Executive Meddling from the editors was to blame, but either way the damage was done.

Not only does this not really show how the base is divided, but, from what I can gather from the MTG Subreddit, this doesn't seem to be a base-breaking issue. What do you guys think should be done with this?

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That reads more like Internet Backdraft.

EDIT: Sorry didn't know Base Breaking Characters had a separate thread.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Jan 2nd 2020 at 12:30:32 PM

Bringing up these examples from YMMV.Legion Of Super Heroes:

• Broken Base: Infamously.
  • The 5YL Legion. Was it merely elevated fanfic, pulling needless retcons in order to let the writers insert their pet theories into the Legion's history, and pointlessly trying to be darker and edgier or was it a mature development for the Legion? Generally, it's the former, but there are still some die-hard fans.
  • The Reboot Legion. Everyone seems to agree that the reboot itself was completely necessary, given the clusterfuck of continuity that was the Legion post-Crisis, which only got worse with the 5YL Legion. However...
    • Regarding the Legion itself, some found them to be too kind-friendly and lighthearted. Others like this approach, and noted that that's how the original Legion started, and that focusing on the group as teens first made for better characterisation.
    • The early issues. Some think the series rushed too fast into bringing in new members and retelling old stories. Others like the new, more diverse cast and found the retellings interesting enough to be warranted.
    • Olivier Coipel's art got a mixed reception from longtime Legion fans, as, for the time, it was a much more modern look than the mostly traditional artists the Legion usually gets, with some deriding his scratchy art. Others liked his kinetic art style, and thought he modernised the Legion a bit. Noticeably, he is a much more universally acclaimed artist these days, with a much cleaner style.
  • The Threeboot:
    • Was it a pointless reboot filled with mean-spirited jabs at older people (many of whom make up the Legion's fanbase), or a mature, original look at the Legion concept? Noticeably, there seems to be an overlap between fans of the Reboot Legion and Threeboot detractors, though Preboot fans are known to also make their dislike pretty clear. With years since their last appearance, their standing has fallen significantly.
    • The Jim Shooter run. Was it a nasty, mean-spirited, unpleasant run of stories, filled with a surprisingly large amount of sexism? Or a So Okay, It's Average, more traditional Legion run where Shooter did his best with the Threeboot team and editorial interference at the time? Generally, people praise Francis Manapul's art, however, though not to the degree of his post-Legion work.
  • The Retroboot: Some thought of the team as existing purely on the Author Appeal of Geoff Johns and cashing in on nostalgia, making several unnecessary jabs at the other Legions, while not getting the spirit of older stories. Others appreciate seeing the original Legion again, especially as a more traditional approach while the Threeboot were doing their own thing. While opinions were fairly divided at the time, history hasn't been kind to this Legion, and many fans now consider the Retroboot as having been a bad move, and a particularly new reader-unfriendly one at that, requiring that they read lots of incredibly old material.
    • Another side argues the Retroboot was at least willing to acknowledge the Threeboot and Reboot Legions as existing side-by-side, which would've given the opportunity to continue doing stories with all three groups of Legionnaires instead of focusing on just one and pretending the others never happened.

Alright, I know people here are getting sick of the whole Ben 10 vs. Green Lantern Broken Base, but this was added to the page two days ago:

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• Ben 10 vs. Green Lantern. What a glorious clusterfuck that was.

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Unlike the previous entry regarding the subject, which was too one-sided in Ben's favor, this one doesn't explain anything. I've already deleted it, but I'm starting to think that Broken Base entries for Death Battle should be brought by here first before being added.

EDIT: Would perma-locking the page and only allowing pre-approved entries from this thread circumvent the issue? The Death Battle YMMV is perma-locked, so maybe Broken Base should be to.

Edited by ssjSega on Jan 24th 2020 at 7:46:53 AM

I'm of the opinion that almost none of the Death Battle entries are likely to be valid. If every episode causes a Broken Base, then none of them do. People disagreeing with the outcome of a battle isn't a Broken Base, it's just "sometimes people have different opinions about stuff."

The Superman vs. Goku one might be valid; it was at least a sustained enough conflict that the DB folks thought it worth it to cash in on the interest by making a rematch video, which is very rare.

The rest, though, fall into the "people disagreed for a while, until a new thing came out for them to disagree about at which point they promptly forgot about it" category of non-example.

Okay, so someone added another entry regarding the Ben 10 vs. Green Lantern fight. It's better than the last few tries in that acknowledges the arguments in Green Lantern's favor. I still think it's kinda long and rambly, and could probably be condensed significantly. Also it ends on a Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment pothole, which is a practice that's starting to be discouraged from the higher-ups.