Broken Base Cleanup

I'm not familiar with this comic but the "since it was first announced" sounds awfully like prerelease troping.

By the way, since we agreed that a Broken Base needs a 6 months period of waiting, shouldn't we add on the main Broken Base page something like "Please do not add examples until 6 months after the release of the work"?

Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:48:03 PM

That makes it sound like it's okay for people to make up their minds the trope is in effect within a day or two of the release and then just sit on a clock waiting to add it regardless of what's going on in the fandom after six months.

Perhaps word it something like "Please do not start assessing whether or not this trope applies until six months after the release" instead?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 22nd 2018 at 11:55:58 AM

The rule isn't perfect but at least it can't prevent some knee jerk reaction.

The Base-Breaking Character page has "A conflict should last for at least six months to qualify; any shorter and it's probably just your average fan disagreement."

We should add a sentence telling people not to add examples until 6 months after the work's release at the end of the "sustained conflict" bullet point. The same sentence that's used for Base-Breaking Character is good.

Edited by ADrago on Aug 27th 2018 at 6:57:33 AM

That wording works.

Gosh YMMV.Tangled The Series is bad and has what appears to be nothing but knee-jerk reactions and minor disagreement and too many Base Breaking Characters as well. I'd nuke everything but I'm not familiar with the fandom.

• Broken Base: This show has quite a few elements that split the fanbase to say the least:
  • Half of the fanbase adores the more adventure based story-lines in the latter half of the first season and consider it to be the definite Growing the Beard moment of the series, but the other half wishes that it would have stayed a Slice of Life cartoon and that the shift to a darker tone, while a good idea in theory, was handled clumsily, citing darkness induced audience apathy as a reason why.
    • The Cerebus Syndrome in general is this, switching from more epic, story driven stories to more fun, lighthearted episodes. There are those think the show switches tones pretty well, or those who think the tone is inconsistent, and can't decide whether to be fairly serious or fairly lighthearted.
  • Is "Rapunzel's Enemy" a refreshing take on the "trying to befriend someone who doesn't like you" plot, or is it a poor episode where it treads sensitive ground that's very rarely pulled off well?
  • Is "Secret Of The Sundrop" an epic conclusion to season 1 that manages to open the opportunity to get better, or does it suffer greatly from trying to do too much and not fully capitalizing on the idea?
  • The writers' decision to turn Varian into the season one Arc Villain. This split the fandom somewhat, between those who commended the tragic turn of events in following Varian's fall from well-intentioned desperation to outright kidnapping and attempted murder, especially with how Varian's VA portrays him, claiming it as well written development of a Tragic Villain. Another portion criticizes the development, claiming that Varian should be written more as a child and treated as such, while seeing it as a Shocking Swerve for those who preferred his previous altruistic development as an ally. This spans from splits surrounding how at blame he is for the events surrounding "Queen For A Day," and continues after his imprisonment in "Secret of the Sundrop," with opinions on what should happen to him next running the gamut from "rot in prison" to "redeemed instantly" and everything in between.
    • Even putting all of that aside, "Queen For A Day" is either seen as a dark and thrilling special with tons of high stakes and maturity, or just an okay special with poor pacing and a false sense of darkness and maturity.
  • Season 2 has proved a bit divisive so far for the following reasons:
    • There are those who think that moving the action away from Corona was a smart move to allow the show's lore to expand , and those who think that doing so means that Corona still isn't greatly expanded on, and thus feels like wasted potential.
    • So far, the season is following a theme on staying in a certain location for a few episodes, essentially slowing down the main plot. There are those who don't mind it due to seeing it as an opportunity to expand on the world while simultaneously building up the plot, or those who find it a boring distraction due to essentially acting like it doesn't matter.
    • Many of the locations visited so far are downright bizarre , from a cottage that has a couple who uses magic to turn people into birds, to an island society of strange creatures, and water beasts, to name a few. The excuse is that this is because no one knows what the outer area of Corona is like, which some believe, and some don't, feeling it's trying too hard to act weird like some other shows , especially compared to how grounded in reality the season started out.
  • The show being renewed for a second season before the series premiere, and subsequently, renewed for a third season before the second one premiered, has also proven divisive. You have one camp who's not bothered by it since it is based on a film that's been both critically and commercially successful. On the other hand, there are those who think it might fall into the same trappings as Star Wars Rebels , which also had the entire series greenlit at once, and as such, couldn't properly address fan concerns until much later, much like how this series is accused of it. The higher ups seem to have caught wind of this, given that the show's reruns have been greatly reduced.
  • The art style is also up for debate, with one group calling it "cheap flash garbage" (even though this is hand drawn) and calling it dated or those who praise how the colors blend together well and are reminiscent of Rapunzel's paintings in the movie, giving it a sense of elegance.
  • The humor is also up for debate, namely in how some episodes (Way Of The Willow for example) seem a bit more concerned in trying to squeeze in a lot of jokes, or have jokes that undermine the episode (like episode 5). Again, this is all about preference.

• The first entry sounds like a False Dichotomy: either you love the adventure episodes and hate the slice-of-life ones, or vice versa. Surely there must be a good part of the fanbase that likes both episode types; I can't imagine calling myself a fan of a show where I dislike half of the episodes.
• The one about season 2 says "so far", indicating that it was added while the season was still airing and making it fail the sustained conflict requirement.
• The one about the show getting renewed is misuse in a few ways. For starters, the "for" side is "not bothered" by the issue, indicating that they don't actually hold a strong opinion on the subject. Meanwhile, the "against" side is only speculating about how the show might drop in quality, which makes it sound like the entry was added shortly after the announcements.
• The last entry (about the jokes) doesn't explain the position of the side that likes the show's humor, so it comes across as one person complaining about how they don't like the jokes. It's overall very lacking in context.

I'm not familiar enough with the show to comment on the other examples.

As for Base-Breaking Character, a lot of them just list a positive and a negative trait, and leave it at that, which is not a lot of context (you could add nearly any character going by that standard). Adira is only "a bit divisive", which makes it sound like she's not actually an example. I also find it hard to believe that half of the show's fans hate Rapunzel, considering how she's the main character: surely if you dislike her that much, it would put you off from the show entirely.

Edited by Zuxtron on Aug 31st 2018 at 5:37:17 AM

All I know is I've seen many prolonged arguments for and against the season 1 villain with varying degrees from 'he literally did nothing wrong' to 'he's a monster'.

Found these on YMMV Mega Man, and while I've seen Classic vs Battle Network fights that persist to this day the example just comes off as complaining.

• Broken Base: The fanbase in general is littered with series loyalty wars. The wars are very noticeable on sites that report on all kinds of Mega Man news, and conflicts most often start when believable rumors of a new Mega Man game arise. Some of the more noticeable ones at the moment include:
  • Fans of the Classic Timeline games tend to regard the Network Timeline as an utter failure, as well as accusing it of being a Mega Man version of Pokémon, because they're RPG-based instead of Platformers. Some Classic Timeline fans will even say they are hardcore gamers, while claiming that fans of the EXE Timeline are Casual and that the EXE games are Hobby-style.
    • Possibly some of the criticism is also because the games are essentially a new Mega Man for a new generation. Everyone who knew Mega Man from the starting game would be an adult by the time Battle Network began, and many of the new players recruited to Network hadn't been around to experience the original games. So in a sense, the base is less "broken" and more supplemented by a new branch that's inherently separate from the old.
    • Provided players don't deplore RPG gameplay, there isn't much to legitimately complain about in the Network series, which keeps the same fundamental focus of fighting variously-themed cyberpunk characters utilizing collected weapons. Indeed, most of the characters in Battle Network are tributes to those in the classic, most-iconic, phase of the original timeline, so in a sense it feels more familiar than Mega Man games from X-onward.
  • Some EXE fans dislike Ryuusei/Star Force mainly due to changes to the battle system that put a greater emphasis on luck and stats rather than strategy. Ryuusei fans that equally dislike EXE argue that getting rid of the code system allowed for more fluid folder customization. There are times where some fans of one or both sides will make it apparent that they absolutely loathe each other.
    • The recent announcement of an EXE/Ryuusei crossover game in the works ignited some hot controversy on all sides of BOTH the above conflicts.
  • There are even wars within some of the individual fanbases. The first half of the EXE series versus the second half (or EXE4 versus the rest of the EXE series), the first half of the X series versus the second half, the Classic debates over 8-bit graphics versus other graphic styles (mostly brought up by the 9th Classic game), and so on.
  • There's also the fights that start whenever a new Capcom Vs Whatever game is announced. People argue back and forth over which Mega Man should make it in.
    • Or Zero, or Proto Man, or Roll, or Bass, or Axl, or Wily...
  • Most fans don't really care whether it's Mega Man or Rockman, only slightly preferring whichever one they were introduced to first. You wouldn't know it to look at any dedicated fan site, which are convinced that their translation (usually Rockman) is better, and everyone else are uncultured morons.
  • Turns out the only game resembling a proper Mega Man title for the 25th Anniversary would be what started out as a fan game, then taken under Capcom's wing to be released on December 17th for free. Depending on who you ask, Street Fighter X Mega Man is either a friendly nod to the fans, or Capcom digging themselves even deeper.
    • Remember when Ryu was just ending his anniversary and Mega Man was just starting his? Well Street Fighter characters aren't the only crossover he's getting ...
  • The Man of Action Studios cartoon announced in 2015. Proof that Capcom still considers Mega Man relevant, or a half-arsed attempt to cover their behinds over his treatment? Doesn't help that the only thing Mega Man related at that years E3 was yet another Compilation Re-release of the first six classic games, either.
    • When the show's premise and Mega Man's new design were revealed: an interesting reimagining of the character and the classic series, or a half-baked clone of Ben 10 that tries too hard to combat Mega Man's waning relevancy?

Edited by lalalei2001 on Aug 31st 2018 at 1:41:24 PM

Could the Megaman series A vs. Megaman series B stuff fit under Fandom Rivalry (with some trimming/editing)? I'd imagine there are enough people who like all series to disqualify it from Broken Base (because it's a sizable middle-ground), but I remember it being somewhat of a thing back when I was into Battle Network, so unless it's gone for good I think it's worth mentioning on some level.

Cut everything else though.

I went ahead and added a sentence telling people not to add examples until six months after the work's release at the end of the sustained conflict bullet point on the Broken Base page.

This entry from Yandere Simulator seems to be tilting heavily towards one side, but given that its about an actual person, I'm not sure we should have it.

• Yandere Dev himself. While the majority of people like him or at least appreciate his game, some dislike him personally for some things he did (or is alleged to have done) prior to starting development on Yan Sim. Others dislike him for his bad attitude, rudeness towards his fans and his flimsy coding.

That example should be removed since it's about the creator themselves rather than their works.

Not only should it be removed, all of the Broken Base entries on the page have problems with them.

Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:42:18 AM

Don't know anything about Yandere Simulator, but doesn't the fact that it's still in development automatically make all fan disputes short-term, and therefor not a Broken Base (which is about sustained conflicts)?

Since the game does have a playable beta, a Broken Base could theoretically form over certain aspects which are confirmed to stay in the final version.

Got it. In that case, I think the part about increased difficulty sounds like something that might have merit. The developer's opinions about how murder should be hard seems like the sort of thing a lot of other players might agree with and/or appreciate. Give it a simple rewrite reflecting that and it should be good.

Of coarse, that's only if a good deal of the Yandere Simulator fanbase actually feels this way, which I don't know.

Moving on for a bit. Shokugeki No Soma has a Broken Base section that looks suspiciously large to me.

I don't read/watch this series, but even I can tell that first point about the series's English title is a complete non-issue that nobody genuinely cares about. Most of the other entries just look like "argument-of-the-week" type issues that people would just move on from. But, I don't know for sure.

As someone who is a fan of this show and manga, I can confirm that none of these are discussed anymore. Not too long ago, I removed a few entries that came from recent chapters, indicating that someone has been adding the fandom's current hot button topic to the list without waiting to see whether the debate lasts.

Bringing up this example from Astonishing Ant Man.

• Broken Base: While many people enjoy the book, there are a lot of long-time Scott Lang fans who can't stand Spencer's characterization of Scott, finding his Loser Protagonist status reductive and over-the-top.

Great! another "Some people like it but *complains* *complains* *complains*"

IMO, A Broken Base need to elaborate all sides of the conflicts for the sake of fairness.

Bringing up this example from Growing Around:

• Broken Base:
  • The episode "Dunn vs. Dunn" is liked for the premise and jokes, but has some detractors that complained about Sally grasping the Idiot Ball for most of it.
  • "Jinxed" is generally either disliked for Molly going through a comedic Trauma Conga Line, or at least tolerated for being much less cruel than the average torture porn episode of a cartoon.

Neither of these sound divisive enough to qualify, with the latter being just "tolerated" by one side which indicates that they don't have a strong enough opinion. Plus there's the fact that it seems like the show doesn't actually exist other than some scripts which were never made into full episodes.

YMMV.Street Fighter V has a bunch of broken base examples. Not all of them seem to fit, especially since the game is in active development with releases in 'seasons' so knee-jerk reactions are likely. (Its prequel, YMMV.Street Fighter IV, also had this.)

I know next to nothing about Street Fighter V, but:

• While many longtime players are happy that the game is discarding a lot of the things introduced in Street Fighter IV, some of those who were introduced to the series via the latter aren't as happy.
  • Zero Context. Might be okay if it explains what was removed from IV, and why it was so polarizing.
• Vega's return was surprisingly well-received, thanks to a flashy trailer showing him receiving a bunch of new moves and animations, on top of a redesign of his outfit. However, word came out that Vega, like Nash before him, had become a motion character instead of a charge character. ^note For those who don't know, Street Fighter tends to have special moves performed with either quarter/half/full circle motions, or by holding a direction for a certain amount of time before moving in a different direction. Vega, up until Street Fighter V, used the latter denomination. Debates, rants, and arguments immediately erupted all over any place. One side believes this is a welcome change for the character, expressing that his charge-based gameplay was ill-suited to his design previously and note how well the change has worked for Nash. The other side believes this is a complete betrayal by Capcom, say the character isn't really Vega, and demand a return to his traditional roots since there's no reason to fix what wasn't broken. If nothing else, this is certainly the most emotion and reaction Vega has ever caused, even harking back to his S-Tier Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Capcom vs. SNK 2 days.
  • I don't know, but if this does stay, it should probably be moved to Base-Breaking Character.
• Zangief's reveal has been divided between fans who expected his return because of R. Mika and are pleased that he did, and those either disappointed by his trailer or wishing that Alex had made it instead. ^note Alex would later be added as a DLC character. That's not even getting into his new Critical Art, which, by "Zangief standards," is seen by many as underwhelming.
  • Most of this is about a pre-release trailer. The rest is just complaining. Cut.
• The game being console exclusive to PS4, as the previous game was released simultaneously for both Sony and Microsoft's consoles. The fact that it's also available for PC didn't even help.
  • Ugh, console warring. Cut.
• The new opening song "Survivor" by the Japanese band Man With a Mission seems to have split the fans. One side thinks it's a great pick, another thinks it doesn't hold up against SFIV's theme song, and a third faction thinks that the song just needs some time to grow on players... just like "Indestructible" did. History repeats itself!
  • I highly doubt people care that much about an opening song. Cut.
• Nash's Story Mode features Bison with brown hair in a flashback. However, in gameplay, his Street Fighter V model with gray hair is recycled, showing that Bison didn't receive a proper model or costume to reflect the past unlike other characters such as Nash. There are some fans who are annoyed about this. Others don't really mind.
  • Complaining about a minor inconsistency. Easy cut.
• When the game was released, fans were fiercely divided over the game's amount of content. Defenders say the lack of content is justified because the game was released so professional players would have enough time to practice for gaming tournaments, along with the game being updated for free. Detractors say the game should've been delayed until it was actually finished, or had a lower price to match the content it had on release instead of being a fully-priced game.^note For what it's worth, Capcom themselves were pretty blunt that the game would be unfinished on release with the exception of online mode, and that the single player stuff will come in as a free update. Most have since found the game to be at least acceptable, admittedly since Capcom have released much of the missing content.
  • I remember hearing a LOT of outrage about the lack of content at launch when this game came out, so that might be worth mentioning somewhere else on the YMMV page (if it isn't already). But it's not a Broken Base because it sounds like it eventually got more content, and even if it didn't Broken Base is (more or less) about "love it or hate it" issues, and nobody "loves" a lack of content.
• A good few complaints have come about over the laser focus of Capcom on the online functionality, to the point that there is no offline arcade mode, only a Story Mode akin to the Mortal Kombat reboot, and the big announcement for 2017 is massive expansion to the online battle hub. Added to that the fact several rewards require you to be online constantly, and you become more and more sure the game's offline content is just window dressing.
  • Complaining. Cut.
• One of the fastest examples ever happened at the conclusion of Capcom Cup 2016. Ono revealed that Akuma would be the first character out of six for Season 2. The crowd immediately erupted into cheers...at which point Ono finished his statement by saying that the next five characters would all be completely new to Street Fighter. The cheers immediately stopped and were replaced with both optimistic clapping and passionate boos. After said even, the fandom has continued being divided on this, as while some are happy to see what new characters get released, this also guarantees at least another year where we won't see fan favorites like Blanka, Rose, or Dudley.
  • Sounds like a kneejerk reaction, but I don't know.
• The Season 2 update. While some are satisfied with the balance changes, the addition of rebindable keys to the PC version, and everything else the update did, some were angry at Capcom for not including certain features like Arcade Mode.
  • Just skimming through the YMMV page shows me that they eventually did add Arcade Mode, so this is outdated. Cut.
• Character Redesigns
  • Ken, Vega, and Karin's entries are just complaining. Zangief and Akuma sound like they got fixed with alternate costumes. Don't know about Cammy.
• Public Relations mishaps
  • All just one-sided complaining. Cut.

Edited by mrbits on Sep 17th 2018 at 7:54:50 AM