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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#4051: Nov 18th 2024 at 9:55:17 AM

You know Wraith is indeed in a weird place as an antagonist after all that set up, she's kind of treated as an ally to Peter and Miles despite her crimes.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
chino514 (Apprentice)
#4052: Nov 18th 2024 at 10:01:07 AM

I think the gaming labor strike probably had something to do with no DLC.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#4053: Nov 18th 2024 at 10:01:47 AM

But honestly, Hammerhead is a decent enough bad guy IMO. I liked his whole nostalgic gangster longing for the old days of the rotten apple, hating the rise of super powered crime, and trying to turn back the clock but being a hypocrite about it.

I hated that, because the whole thing is just... so stupid. Putting aside that his solution to going back to the old days is to make himself into a super villain and outfit his guys like they work for HYDRA, his entire plan is dumb. Like, for all their flaws, the Demons weren't trying to take over New York. They have a goal they are trying to achieve, they aren't planning to become a permanent thing waiting around for the US government to come kick their ass. Like, the best outcome for his stupid plan is the National Guard / the Army comes in to kick his ass coz he's stolen military hardware. Frankly getting his ass kicked by Spidey and Yuri probably worked out better for him.

He's also just... not intimidating. He's ridiculous and the game kind of has to bend itself over backwards to make him threatening via making everyone else kind of incompetent (Props for Silver Sable just leaving all her military gear around to get stolen by the first loser to get the idea!). He's such a step down in writing and menace from the Sinister Six, Li and Otto in particular.

Edited by Ghilz on Nov 18th 2024 at 1:04:07 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#4054: Nov 18th 2024 at 10:07:41 AM

Personally I think him being a stupid dangerous hypocrite is part of why he works for me personally, since yeah there’s no way his plan is going to work long term and he’s a hypocrite for trying to turn back the clock by going all supervillain, but he’s still capable of causing lots of damage if he’s not stopped and that’s why he’s the main antagonist.

He’s def meant to be a contrast to Otto and Martin Li in that he’s a gleefully amoral moron.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#4055: Nov 18th 2024 at 11:36:04 AM

I wonder if the long development time has made them give up working on dlc and instead just focus on developing the full games instead.

Also I say the side quests in this game from being very "repetitive open world map design".

Too much same drone missions that you have to follow around on the wing suit and not enough story quests like Wraith's missions which feature some actual cinematics and a boss fight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#4056: Nov 18th 2024 at 11:42:47 AM

The First game has a similar issue. At least this time Screwball didn't return and thank god for that.

Really disappointed Kraven didn't kill her.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#4057: Nov 18th 2024 at 11:48:45 AM

Its why I have some hope for Wolverine to be an improvement as its confirmed not to be open world.

It being more linear hopefully means it has stronger mission design and story since they don't have to fill the world map with busy work.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#4058: Nov 18th 2024 at 1:35:55 PM

I remember being genuinely stunned that Hammerhead, of all people, got three DLC episodes where he was the main villain.

To be fair, Hammerhead is a pretty major, self-sufficient villain in the comics that I'd say definitely could be main bad guy material.

It's just that... never happens in adaptations. It's weird.

I think it there was a conversation in one of the other Spider-Man threads a while back where we talked about how bizarre it is that every adaptation of Hammerhead depicts him as someone's minion or a minor throwaway villain when he's generally actually like that in the source. So a lot of fans see him as an underboss type, when he doesn't have to be.

The only one that doesn't is Marvel's Spider-Man (both this game, and also the animated show of the same name (funnily enough), which depicts him as an independent villain with control over other villains, but still has him be fairly minor in the grand scheme of things).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 18th 2024 at 1:37:50 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4059: Nov 18th 2024 at 3:53:47 PM

The First game has a similar issue. At least this time Screwball didn't return and thank god for that.

Really disappointed Kraven didn't kill her.

I'm not shocked at that. She probably didn't even tick his worthy opponent meter.

Of course, this wouldn't really stop her from trying to maybe track him down for a video (though maybe even she's not that stupid) but as long as she's not getting in his way, I figure Kraven wouldn't even bother.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#4060: Nov 18th 2024 at 4:14:57 PM

I think I'm the only person who liked Screwball as a character.

Imo she gets misblamed for what was ultiamtely just a terrible collectathon quest that would've made any villain attached to it look bad.

It's like how Arkham was for a time really bad for Riddler's reputation.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#4061: Nov 18th 2024 at 5:22:44 PM

Im of the opinion that Arkham Riddler is the best version of the character.

I feel like Wally Wingert’s performance as the Riddler is so hilarious and so smug that he loops back from annoying to entertaining to hateable, to all the way back to entertaining.

It’s like Cross the Line Twice the performance.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4062: Jan 10th 2025 at 7:22:32 PM

I just started playing Spider-Man 2 and I have...issues.

It's a good game overall but I think I definitely rank this third of the Spider-Man games so far and if we're including the DLC then 4th. The first game is probably the apothoesis of my love of Spider-Man and a 10 out of 10. The Miles Morales spin-off had its flaws but it had a clear antagonist and theme that worked for me. The DLC with Hammerhead is also one that I absolutely loved as any flaws with Hammerhead/Silvermane were smoothed over by Felicia Hardy/Black Cat and Silver Sable's big presence.

2 is...just not great.

There's great MOMENTS spread around the game but I feel like there's serious flaws that are always having me stop the game to go, "this doesn't feel right." Kraven the Hunter just doesn't work as a guy with a big army of mercenaries since, well, he's a solo hunter as his whole thing. Cletus Cassidy as a flame-obsessed cult leader feels like an entirely different bad guy. The death of so many minor and not so minor Spider-Man villains. The single mission with Felicia Hardy just reminded me how much I love her.

And so on.

Everything with Harry is generally great but it also feels largely disconnected with the first game except for Miles' relationship with Martin Li. You wouldn't know that Norman Osborn was Mayor of New York City for example. I will say that the Harry bits are great, no real notes. But the games pacing is all over the place.

I mean, the game starts with Sandman wrecking all of New York City and then goes to fighting thugs for a bit. That really felt like an endgame-boss sort of thing or at least something to massively build-up to. I feel like this game needed restructuring.

Anyone else feel this way?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#4063: Jan 10th 2025 at 7:28:56 PM

[up] It definitely feels like it's been slimmed down compared to the first game.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4064: Jan 10th 2025 at 7:30:07 PM

I admit if I were writing a Spider-Man 2, I would have kept the Harry Plot and Venom plot but used a different villain for the start of the game like Tombstone or the Rose taking over New York's mobs (allow biker Tombstone to become Kingpin Tombstone). Maybe have a gang war with those two that the Spider-Men are trying to solve.

But weirdly, the special abilities feel a lot more necessary in this game and thus I feel less like acrobatic combat is being rewarded versus blasting people or spider-legs.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#4065: Jan 10th 2025 at 7:44:05 PM

Yea, I felt the same way. Especially about Kraven. It felt a lot of good ideas jammed together in a way that didn't fully make sense.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4066: Jan 10th 2025 at 8:13:21 PM

One weird thing is that while Kraven proves himself to be quite the threat, I really do think Sandman is the one character who should not be so scared of him. Like, even if he has some way to turn Flint into glass or something, it's pretty hard to kill Sandman.

Of course, maybe I'm selling Kraven short, and he might find a way.

One Strip! One Strip!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4067: Jan 10th 2025 at 8:16:35 PM

I mentioned that Sandman destroying Manhattan as a Kaiju feels like the end of the game rather than the beginning. Certainly, I don't think Kraven would be able to take him and if his goal was to supercharge him then he should have been there fighting him. I kept waiting for some kind of mad science explanation for why his powers went from 0-100 too.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#4068: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:09:53 PM

Kraven's my main issue with the game. He's just not interesting. He's gleefully evil but not even really entertaining about it, with his dime store survival of the fittest philosophy.

And he gets shilled so hard to be a threat, everyone just becomes fucking stupid or incompetent around him to make him feel dangerous. It's not earned.

And of course he gets exactly what he wants in the end. So you dont even get that satisfaction

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#4069: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:17:21 PM

Yeah fuck Kraven.

This game made me hate him so much more.

But ironically, the movie kinda made me like him.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#4070: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:22:01 PM

The problem isn't Kraven, not really. The problem is that the plot is so stretched thin that Kraven feels like the only thing that gets the screentime it needs. A storyline about supervillains being abducted and forced to do battle for a dying man's amusement sounds top tier but it's a background event.

Then Kraven exit's the plot even faster than he entered because we need to hit the gas for Venom.

Just Having Fun
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#4071: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:34:49 PM

The problem isn't Kraven, not really.

No, the problem IS Kraven because Kraven really has nothing to him. Even Li has more going in the first game as "Antagonist that gets things going".

Kraven is exactly the dumb pile of cliche he is. And it's not helped by the fact that his motivations are just... so stupid. Like, a good villain works because they have strong motivations towards a specific goal.

Kraven's "goal" isn't particularly interesting or relatable. And the actions he takes towards this goal don't really serve to make him all that interesting. Kraven is in no way affected or reflexive about the hundreds or thousands of people his guys kill in his pursuit of getting himself killed. Like, at least Li was conflicted over his own evil. Especially since the game kind of bends itself over backwards to not have Kraven get his ass killed by people who could clearly do the deed.

The more you learn about Kraven (like about his family), the more one dimensional he becomes. It's like reverse character development. "Oh, maybe there's layers"

"No actually, he's really that simple flat a character".

Edited by Ghilz on Jan 10th 2025 at 1:37:59 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4072: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:50:01 PM

There's also the fact that Kraven gets some strays from the fact that he kills a bunch of well-liked characters. Spider-Man fails to save any of these villains when you could have a really good adventure where he has to rescue people like the Shocker and Scorpion in Central Park—only for him to fight them in boss battles.

I know because this is a PLOT in Spencer's Spider-Man run and it was pretty good. Probably the best Kraven plot since Kraven's Last Hunt.

And this is nothing like Kraven's Last Hunt.

While there's no DLC, I'd have loved Kraven's family coming to avenge him as the premise for one and Spiderman versus the three Kravinoff children and Chameleon.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 10th 2025 at 10:50:51 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#4073: Jan 10th 2025 at 10:59:51 PM

Why would they come to avenge him. The game goes out of its way to set up they all hate one another murderously.

Again they are painfully flat one dimensional evil.

Edited by Ghilz on Jan 10th 2025 at 2:00:31 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4074: Jan 10th 2025 at 11:07:17 PM

Actually, I'm commenting on the fact they're all killed off screen too.

I mean, Kraven's son wasn't great.

His sister wasn't that much better.

But they get Killed Offscreen without fanfare despite being liked by at least some Spiderfans.

Kraven's son in the comics was actually tragic in the fact that he was a much better man than his father but raised with an insane code of honor his father didn't even believe in.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#4075: Jan 10th 2025 at 11:37:03 PM

Personally, I hated Li's presence much more because he was already the main villain of the first game. Why on Earth does he get to clog up the second game too?

Just Having Fun

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