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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#726: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:34:06 PM

The Master of Puppets moment reminded me strongly of the use of Poets of the Fall in Remedy games, especially the Children of the Elder Gods concert.

Yeah, I have some... concerns about all of that. Don't get me wrong, I hate "gay pain" kind of plot as much as every queer person out there, but softening (or just plain ignoring) real life 80s homophobia wouldn't mesh too well with somewhat realistic approach of first seasons (remember, "gay" being common slur is presented in first season).

And I don't think that pinkwashing history is the most graceful thing in this case.

How would you do it then?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:35:02 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
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#727: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:47:00 PM

The Master of Puppets moment reminded me strongly of the use of Poets of the Fall in Remedy games, especially the Children of the Elder Gods concert.

Which also happened in Left 4 Dead 2, released at about the same time. A set of levels at an amusement park concludes by kicking off a pre-recorded rock concert and then fighting waves and waves of zombies while the music blares and fireworks explode everywhere.

It's widely considered the best finale in the Left 4 Dead franchise.

Maybe Sullivan will continue to be the main human villain now that Brenner is dead and the Soviet counterpart to Hawkins Lab (Did they ever get a name beyond 'the Soviets'?) seems dealt with. But uh, I am unsure how they would tie him into the whole 'invasion from Hell' thing'

He's a general in command of the United States army. I don't think there's any question to be had about why he would be involved in an invasion of hostile enemy forces from another dimension.

The better question is why he was involved in hunting Brenner. His actions in this season are super illegal. The United States military is legally forbidden to act as law enforcement on domestic soil. Unless Dr. Brenner, Dr. Owens, and the people at Hawkins Lab are themselves Russian military personnel, Sullivan's actions in this season are "immediately go to prison forever" kind of crimes.

It should have been the FBI shaking down Dr. Owens and then investigating him from there. Not the goddamn United States Army. Absolutely not.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:48:35 AM

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Misiael Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#728: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:49:37 PM

[up] [up] At all? Duffers kinda write themselves into a corner with this one. They wanted cute 80s setting with all rich pop culture we were able to produce back then, but in the same time they are shooting TV show for modern viewers, uncomfortable with facing problematic shades of that time period. Which is a problem and if you aren't careful enough, you'll end up presenting the past as pinkwashed, unproblematic Arcadia.

I'd probably out Will (as a writer, not a person, obviously) to everyone in main cast and show a variety of reactions, from unconditional acceptance to open contempt. Yes, some positive main characters should have deeply rooted homophobia in them. That would be hard for writers and viewers as well, but that would be realistic and... interesting on narrative level.

But Duffer boys are clearly too precious about their character, they wouldn't dare to give them any hard flaws (or kill any of them, for that matter), which is a problem on itself.

Edited by Misiael on Jul 3rd 2022 at 12:51:23 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#729: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:54:43 PM

The "Master of the Puppets" sequence is so great it honestly makes me very sad it's ultimately largely inconsequential to the climax. Wish they had used it for the final push against Vecna (hell, Eddie going out in a blaze of glory rocking out would perhaps have been even more fitting for the character).

[up][up] I think the legality of Sullivan is kind of irrelevant here. Hawkins Lab is already fifteen shades of illegal (what with human experiments and torture on US children) by any definition. The trickier bit is more that the show doesn't want to acknowledge that the premise here would imply some very dark shit about the USA all the way to the top (i.e. presumably Ronald Reagan or someone very close to him is directly overseeing Sullivan's and Hawkins' actions).

Edited by Gaon on Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:57:59 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#730: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:55:17 PM

I disagree because if I can believe teenagers and preteens can survive the Slender Man and Freddy Krueger, I can believe they're all uncommonly accepting of homosexuality.

Mostly because I don't see the public benefit of a "hard truth" here since it's already an idealized Eighties.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:56:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Misiael Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#731: Jul 3rd 2022 at 3:58:01 PM

[up]Teenagers could survive fighting in World War and be violently homophobic to hippies and whatnot after returning home not long after that. What's your point exactly? That trauma lead to more acceptance?

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#732: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:04:50 PM

Yeah considering how much of the worst homophobia is connected to religion and the group are very non-religious it would probably a departure from their existing characterisation.

That doesn’t mean they have to handle it well, they could still be weirded out and/or make jokes about it that aren’t funny but are intended to show acceptance.

Personally I’d like El to be one of the early ones to find out and have a crisis over it but not because of homophobia (with the environment she was raised in she probably wasn’t exposed to much homophobia) but because she feels guilty and thinks that she’s ‘stolen’ Mike from Will.

What's your point exactly? That trauma lead to more acceptance?

I think it’s that if we’re gonna break reality for the sake of a good story in one instance (by having them survive when they shouldn’t) we can do it in a second instance (by having the main cast not be massive homophones).

Edited by Silasw on Jul 3rd 2022 at 12:07:13 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
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#733: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:05:56 PM

Was Brenner backed by the government? I do remember that it was said he was CIA once and involved with MK Ultra. That would put it more in Sullivan's 'jurisdiction' sense it would be hunting things from a government project. But also would explain Sullivan's motives, as his hunt for Brenner and Eleven would be a Destroy the Evidence plan on the Government's part

[up] When has it been said they are non religous? From what we can see they are just not fundamentalist nut cases like large chunks of the town.

Edited by Snoketrope on Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:07:54 AM

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Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#734: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:11:17 PM

Honestly, if the show had Steve be cool with Robin, I can't see anyone in the main not being cool with Will, since Steve was definitely the most likely to have the typical 80's homophobia. I expect the actual scene will involve Will coming out, but the Party, Jonathan, and his mother basically going 'yeah, we figured,' with only the older characters being surprised at all. Mike's big revelation will be that Will liked him specifically, since even in season 3 he seems fully aware that Will isn't straight.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#735: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:13:23 PM

I always thought that Hawkins Lab is very clearly a black-ops government project to the keel. It's just very unclear where exactly the buck stops with this project (Director of the CIA? Some fictional agency? The President?).

The Soviet program is even more vague given the show's insistence on characterizing the Soviets as a Orientalist Horde of Orcs with one or two humans. The comics, I'm told, expand (and humanize) them but that's all Expanded Universe stuff (and thus dubiously canon).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Misiael Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#736: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:13:46 PM

I'd probably have Will came out to Robin in some way and those to bond over shared experience, with her helping him come to terms with himself.

I would feel really uncomfortable with show presenting a social circle from a small town in the 1980s as freely accepting of queerness. It would be disgraceful to older queer people who had to grow up in such conditions and face homophobia and rejection from their family and neighborhood.

Why would queer activists back then even fight for their rights when things were so good?

Edited by Misiael on Jul 3rd 2022 at 1:15:46 PM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
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#737: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:16:58 PM

There is a massive amount of space between 'Group of friends are not homophobic and accept friend' and 'societal homophobia was not that big an issue at the time', especially as pointed out above, atleast Mike seems to already know Will is not straight. Given the 'not my fault you don't like girls' thing, the fact he is in love with Mike is the one big secret.

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Misiael Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#738: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:19:40 PM

[up]Like I said, I'd like to see variety of reactions from rest of cast. Not everyone of them turning into violent homophobe. That would be just as unrealistic as casual acceptance.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#739: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:21:24 PM

The government agency in Hawkins is basically the Shop from Stephen King's Firestarter (just like so much of the rest of it is Goonies mixed with It). Everything is about it is illegal but has the government's full blessing.

If you want to be Aluminum Christmas Trees about it, it's presumably the government of this world's Project: Stargate but one that actually had real psychics.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
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#740: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:21:32 PM

Was that line meant to indicate that Mike knows about Will being gay? From the context, I took it as Mike calling Will immature. Will was upset that Mike and Lucas were more interested in fixing their relationships with El and Max than they were in playing his D&D campaign.

I didn't take that as Mike saying, "It's not my fault that you're gay, a thing that has nothing to do with this conversation!" I took it as Mike saying, "It's not my fault that you're more interested in sitting around playing childish games instead of getting a girlfriend like everyone else is doing!" He's

Will is gay, a fact that season four made abundantly clear. But I don't think that line indicates that Mike knows it. He could just as easily have said something like, "It's not my fault you haven't hit puberty yet."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:23:23 AM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#741: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:25:14 PM

I was a homophobic child of the Eighties (ie. a fucking moron) and my memories are notable that prior to lots of them coming out, there was also an awareness that plenty of people we knew didn't have the same interest in the opposite sex.

It was actually pretty normalized that you'd know a few people who had interest in dating, girls, or the opposite sex.

And years, later, I found out...oh you were gay, ace, or so on.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Misiael Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#742: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:32:42 PM

Changing a subject somewhat, I just looked at this Wikipedia page about Stranger Things characters and I can't stop cackling. Twenty two characters are listed as "main characters". I know some of them... well, three of them were killed, but even then, it's just hilariously many.

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#743: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:37:18 PM

Honestly.I don't think the show has the time do to a proper coming out storyline.

They do have a army of monsters to to prepare for after all.I'ed ready prefer they focus on that.

I'm already dreading more relationship drama between Nancy and Jonathan.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
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#744: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:43:17 PM

SO apparenty they confirmed season 5 will have another time jump

And uh

With how the season ends

Post apocalyptic storyline coming up?

Was Max's nickname foreshadowing?

Edited by Snoketrope on Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:44:35 AM

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#745: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:45:32 PM

When has it been said they are non religous? From what we can see they are just not fundamentalist nut cases like large chunks of the town.

They might have some level of faith, but religion plays on real role in their lives (note who it never comes up), so them being deeply homophobic because of their religious beliefs would be a weird turn.

Honestly, if the show had Steve be cool with Robin, I can't see anyone in the main not being cool with Will, since Steve was definitely the most likely to have the typical 80's homophobia.

Hopper is the other options.

I'd probably have Will came out to Robin in some way and those to bond over shared experience, with her helping him come to terms with himself.

That would require someone to first out Robin. You could probably get some solid content from Will and Robin both dancing around coming out to the other because they think the other is gay, but not actually doing it because of fear of a homophobia reaction.

I would feel really uncomfortable with show presenting a social circle from a small town in the 1980s as freely accepting of queerness. It would be disgraceful to older queer people who had to grow up in such conditions and face homophobia and rejection from their family and neighborhood.

Why?

Such accepting social circles did exist, not many and never enough, but they did exist. The multi-racial, mixed-gender, multi-generational, D&D playing, adopt-a-girl-from-the-woods kind of social group are the kind that were open to gay people when others weren’t.

If we want to go both ways there is a depressingly easy way to do it. Have Will come out to the whole group and have it go okay, then have Robin be inspired by that to come out to her family, who then kick her out on the street because of it. Or just have whatever boyfriend they find for Will come from a homophobic family.

Why would queer activists back then even fight for their rights when things were so good?

“An occasional, socially-inclusive, group in a small town aren’t massively homophobic to one of their own” is a pretty shit definition of things being so good that activists supposedly wouldn’t have anything to fight for.

Like I said, I'd like to see variety of reactions from rest of cast. Not everyone of them turning into violent homophobe. That would be just as unrealistic as casual acceptance.

I just don’t understand your obsession with the main cast having to include some of them going full violent homophobe. Pinkwashing would be pretending that everyone was okay with gay people, it’s not Pinkwashing to have a single social-group not include anyone that is seriously homophobic.

Open and casual racism was a big thing in the ‘80s, do you find it frustrating that none of the main cast have thrown racial slurs at Lucas?

Edited by Silasw on Jul 3rd 2022 at 12:49:32 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
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#746: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:50:12 PM

Protagonists are not a random sampling of people. They are, by definition, people that the audience is supposed to sympathize with, relate to, and want to root for.

I would have a hard time sympathizing with and rooting for Mike if he suddenly started flinging Q-slurs around and trying to banish Will from the party for being gay.

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#747: Jul 3rd 2022 at 4:55:08 PM

I think they did make it clear they would like more just the party having mixed feelings or reactions to the truth with Will, I personally just disagree that it would be required personally. As I think them just being accepting would not be unrealistic as they are already shown to be better then other parts of the hyper-conservative town.

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#748: Jul 3rd 2022 at 5:08:12 PM

One problem I have (and it's more of a stylistic thing than a true flaw per se) is that for 4 seasons now, Eleven has ultimately dealt with each season's threat in the exact same way. She just... overwhelms whatever the current villain is using her mind powers. I don't think she's ever done anything particularly clever with her powers in these finales. She always just hits the problem with a psychic sledgehammer. I thought things might be different this time since the villain was also a hideously powerful psychic, but no.

Edited by GNinja on Jul 3rd 2022 at 12:51:24 PM

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Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
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#749: Jul 3rd 2022 at 5:45:59 PM

I do like how Brenner was presented personally giving him deph and explaining his motives while also, for the most part, not absolving him of all his evil or the horid things he did.

But at the same time, I can see why some would feel it was poorly done. My main thing is with expanded materials. If they were always intending for Martin to be a more complex character, one who would get the Alas, Poor Villain death with the sad music and everything....I do kinda think the side materials to the show could have hinted at that more. Because the stuff I have read about them say that Brenner is presented as basically a demon in human skin. Like with this post for him on CM thread before he got cut this year, that summarizes what happened there.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=7975#comment-199354

They did not write that book so I do wonder how much communication was going on between the Duffer brothers and Gwenda Bond about the specifics about it.

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#750: Jul 3rd 2022 at 6:11:55 PM

Mind you, whether or not it SHOULD represent that will probably be dealt with by the way it WOULD be received.

For a massive chunk of the audience according to the creators and actors both, Billy's Moral Event Horizon wasn't trying to kill anyone or his many other scuzzy actions but the suggestion (not even directly stated) that part of why he hated Lucas was that he was having an interracial Toy Ship with his sister.

Which was every bit as controversial in its own way in the Eighties in much of America (and some places today). Billy's actor even went so far as to deny it because he was getting so much hate mail.

Any character that is homophobic to Will will almost certainly be beyond redemption no matter what they do....and given the climate in the country today, I agree they should be.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 3rd 2022 at 6:12:46 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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