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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2201: Jan 17th 2022 at 11:14:59 AM

Looking at the video games folder, this writeup on the CD-i Zelda games seems a bit... wonky.


  • The Legend of Zelda CD-i Games are either flat out reviled or considered So Bad, It's Good by the Zelda fanbase nowadays. But would you believe that back when these games were first released they actually did pretty well with the game magazines? Critics praised the games for their animated cutscenes and voice work and thought they were a nice new direction for the series. (And even those who did give the game a negative review back then generally deemed it as So Okay, It's Average.) People also learned that there were several factors that held the games back (the CD-i not being strong enough to make the games what they could have been, low budgets, tight deadlines, etc), which made them see the games in a more sympathetic light.

It seems a bit inconsistent as to whether the games are truly "condemned" or not, at least based on how I'm reading it; the understanding I have is that the production is viewed sympathetically, but the games aren't. Thinking of rewriting it as follows to clear up the matter (and fit the base outline of other examples):
  • When The Legend of Zelda CD-i Games were first released, they were generally well-regarded for their fully voiced and animated cutscenes. The titles were considered a promising new direction for the series, and helped drum up publicity for the Philips C Di. As the years went on however, the games became increasingly lambasted for their stiff, unintuitive controls, poor level design, and especially the shaky quality of the very cutscenes that were praised back in the day, with the latter becoming better-known in the 2000s as fodder for You Tube Poop. While greater knowledge of the games' Troubled Production in The New '10s led them to be viewed more sympathetically, they're still near-universally regarded by modern audiences as the worst games in the Zelda franchise, with even Nintendo throwing them into Canon Discontinuity.

Be kind.
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#2202: Jan 17th 2022 at 5:53:33 PM

@alnair

Is Hunger Games still well regarded? Does it still have its fans?

Even Ready Player One was successful (albeit with mixed reception), though that might be because of Spielberg and its entrenchment in nerd culture. A sequel is in the works, so we may have to wait to see how that performs.

Those two alone might disqualify it

However, specific works (like Divergent) could

Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 17th 2022 at 6:35:38 PM

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2203: Jan 17th 2022 at 8:01:04 PM

Has it been long enough for there to be a proper judgment on whether or not the subgenre has been condemned?

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#2204: Jan 17th 2022 at 8:06:41 PM

Possibly. Hunger Games hasn't had a new movie since 2015 (though a new one is coming out). Allegiant came out in 2016 and bombed. Maze Runner 3 came out in 2018, but only because it was delayed. Besides Ready Player One and the Hunger Games Prequel, there seem to be no further attempts at making / continuing a YA dystopian franchise

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2205: Jan 17th 2022 at 8:07:01 PM

I don't think it's been condemned, it just fell out of favor after the boom. Most people who grew up reading it as teenagers grew up and can now look at the stories critically, but I don't think the genre is hated.

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#2206: Jan 17th 2022 at 10:57:32 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] There needs to be citation on those reviews, or maybe an article detailing the history of the CD-I games.

Because otherwise, that just sounds like Critical Dissonance or just an Urban Legend to make the CD-I games look less bad. I was the under impression that the CD-I games were hated from the moment of release by fans. For it to be a proper example, there would have been a time where these games were paraded around as the best thing that ever happened to Zelda for a noticeable time.

I mean, I could think of other pieces of media that would fit this format, yet people wouldn't considered them to be Condemned by History due to various factors like fandom reception from initial release.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
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#2207: Jan 18th 2022 at 1:37:04 AM

Yeah I thought the cdi games have always been panned. Am I missing something?

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bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2208: Jan 18th 2022 at 9:30:13 AM

Hmm, yeah that's a fair point; looking at it again, Wikipedia says that the reception of Faces/Wand was "mixed" in their own time, while Zelda's Adventure was outright panned. With that in mind, I think it'd be best to just axe the point altogether since it wasn't actually a case of "widely praised to widely panned."

Be kind.
PhantomDusclops92 Nitpicky Nitwit from Italy Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Nitpicky Nitwit
#2209: Jan 18th 2022 at 11:18:50 AM

My first contact with the CD-I Zelda games was an article on the Italian Official Nintendo Magazine about the franchise's history in 2003, where there was this small paragraph where they bashed them non stop and actively invited the readers to destroy any copy they would come in contact with.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2210: Jan 19th 2022 at 8:03:40 PM

Thinking about it, I haven't actually heard any praise for the Zelda CD-i games, past or present. I'm cutting it as it as being deemed mediocre at best in its time of release doesn't cut it.

alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
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#2211: Jan 19th 2022 at 11:50:49 PM

I get the feeling the cutsenes are still fodder for Youtube Poop and animation memes. So, likely a cut.

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bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2212: Jan 20th 2022 at 2:09:25 PM

Yeah, it'd probably be best to cut them.

Be kind.
bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2213: Jan 21st 2022 at 5:32:22 PM

Saw that the Zelda CD-i games point was removed from Condemned by History as discussed; I went ahead and removed the trope's point from YMMV.The Legend Of Zelda C Di Games as well, citing this thread.

Be kind.
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2214: Jan 25th 2022 at 1:11:16 AM

Does Dark Syde Phil actually count? I've heard nothing but criticism of him for as long as I can remember and no praise whatsoever. At least Spoony used to have a positive and unironic fanbase.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2215: Jan 25th 2022 at 1:52:17 AM

Hasn't Phyl always been hated. ? Unless I'm missing something.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
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#2216: Jan 25th 2022 at 3:21:04 AM

Yeah DSP has always been hated. Even back in the day Retsupurae were making fun of him. He can go if he hasn't already.

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#2217: Jan 25th 2022 at 2:52:34 PM

I’d say he still qualifies as he had a much better reputation back then than he does now.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#2218: Jan 25th 2022 at 3:24:52 PM

Did he?

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ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#2219: Jan 25th 2022 at 6:30:39 PM

[up] He did, but it had a lot to do with him being quick to jump on the video Let's Play bandwagon, so he didn't have a lot of competition early on. I've also heard his worst qualities weren't as bad in his early career as they'd later get, but I don't know for sure.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2220: Jan 25th 2022 at 6:33:19 PM

As I mentioned, he had critics even then. Retsupurae, a popular channel from that era that made fun of bad Lets Plays and the like, made a collaborative video mocking him and his style, and I remember him having many critics even then, so he's always been contentious.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 25th 2022 at 9:33:28 AM

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easytorememberhandle Since: Jun, 2011
#2221: Jan 25th 2022 at 8:19:36 PM

Phil was never really good, but he was less awful back in the day, before his negative traits completely eclipsed him. My first exposure to him was watching his Heavy Rain videos, and I was intrigued by the comments saying things like "I miss this Phil" and "Phil is completely unrecognizable now" and "if Phil was still like this, I'd still be a fan". And even in those videos you can see his flaws, (especially the sequence where he tries and fails repeatedly to cross the road before the police catch him - he goes into classic Phil "blame the game" mode) but he's a lot more chill, tells a lot fewer crude jokes at inappropriate times, pays attention to the story and even has some moments with heart (like at the end when the main character's son has a fake-out death, Phil assumed that it was because he took too long to save him and reloaded the chapter just to try again).

So Phil wasn't a good creator who got bad, he was a flawed one who gradually got much worse. He was admittedly popular for a time, but that's because he was the "big fish" who was one of the first big L-Pers. Back in the day you put up with Phil's crap because there wasn't much by way of alternatives. Now Let's Plays are everywhere and you only tune into Phil to watch the latest trainwreck.

BlueMonday1984 Since: Jan, 2020 Relationship Status: In another castle
#2222: Jan 26th 2022 at 4:23:24 AM

So Vice dropped an article on Whedon's fall from grace, and it made me wonder if he counts for this trope.

I would say the article gives a strong argument for it, but I'd like to get some feedback here.

alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
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#2223: Jan 26th 2022 at 5:08:34 AM

Hasn't been 5 years yet. Though I'm a bit disappointed on Joss.

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RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#2224: Jan 26th 2022 at 5:26:36 AM

We're also not applying this trope to individuals. Just their works. That being said, I have seen people reevaluate Joss's works recently, specifically their feminist themes. I've also seen him blamed for movies being "too quipy".

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2225: Jan 26th 2022 at 5:49:11 AM

People still like Buffy and Angel. You could give Dollhouse a reevaluation though. Joss Whedon is also no John Kricfalusi, who fucked up with Cans Without Labels way more than Whedon did with Justice League.


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