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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2176: Dec 15th 2021 at 3:26:25 AM

[up] Internet portals don't count IMO. They are actually, as you said, Technology Marches On.

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Twentington Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Desperate
#2177: Dec 18th 2021 at 6:21:23 AM

Would internet commentary videos count, or did those have a Hatedom in their prime? You know, videos where someone reviews and comments on another video by a controversial internet property. These have disappeared as most of them are seen as mean spirited bullying, and some creators have been Vindicated by History. But did the commentators have hatedoms even then or no?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2178: Dec 18th 2021 at 10:22:12 AM

I don't think it's been condemned or vindicated. Commentary is still a thriving genre with many big YouTubers attached to it (Danny Gonzalez, Drew Gooden, Kurtis Conner, Jarvis Johnson, and Cody Ko just to name a few); the main difference now is that most of them either try and talk about real problems on the platform or are doing it strictly for comedy with nothing meanspirited about their jokes. It's an evolving genre, not one I think we can definitively say has been condemned/vindicated by history as there's never been a consistent opinion on them anyway.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 18th 2021 at 1:24:00 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
chucknormie Meh. from DEMACIA! Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Meh.
#2179: Dec 20th 2021 at 11:19:34 AM

[up]Wouldn't even say Leafy, who is the foremost example of the "toxic commentary YouTuber who punches down" stereotype, has been Condemned—maybe 3 years ago, when he had left the platform, he might have been, but his return, where he focused his efforts on calling out big creators for being Hypocrites, was pretty positively received. Regardless, commentary is too massive and diverse a genre to be considered Condemned.

I do have a review-based example I do think is Condemned, though, and that's the backlash against Sword Art Online. This got big when Digibro and Mother's Basement were bashing it, but in this era it's died off thanks to many realizing most reviewers who criticized it were only hopping on a bandwagon for clout, the actual content of the series improving and the series fanbase moving on to other things to a point where criticism of it as one of the worst anime ever on either content or popularity grounds couldn't really be justified, and the author revealing himself to be a pretty personable guy who's just as ashamed of his earlier writing choices as his critics are (along with the realization that some of the most-criticized aspects are the fault of the anime staff and not him). Would this count as an example?

Edited by chucknormie on Dec 20th 2021 at 2:19:50 PM

"Blowing it up always works" -RIP Goblin Boommaster, 2014-2015
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Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#2180: Dec 20th 2021 at 12:24:40 PM

No, it wouldn't count as Condemned by History. Sao would end up as a victim of Popularity Polynomial (something like this happened with Justin Bieber. Reviled during the golden years, but after the hatred died down, the reception became "it exists").

The video of Diginee would be "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny, in my opinion.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#2181: Dec 22nd 2021 at 4:18:30 AM

Can individual characters from a work be Condemned by History? Case in point - Xander Harris from Buffy, who has this entry on Jerks Are Worse Than Villains/ Live-Action TV, which sounds like a CBH entry

  • Xander Harris was a popular and beloved character during the show's original run thanks to a combination of his humor, vulnerabilities and role as The Team Normal in a group where almost everyone either had expert knowledge of the supernatural or was a supernatural creature themselves. However, Values Dissonance has resulted in Xander's character being viewed in a much more negative light over the years. Xander has drawn criticism for his casually sexist comments which are often lobbed at Cordelia (whom he later cheats on), his jealousy of Angel's relationship with Buffy coming across as entitlement, his often judgmental and hypocritical attitude towards his friends, and his ditching Anya at the altar. It doesn't help that Joss Whedon — who admitted to basing Xander on himself — has recently lost a great deal of public favor due to revelations about his personal life and his behavior towards certain actors on the sets of both Buffy and Angel. Some fans have even gone as far as saying Xander is more evil than the villains of the show whose crimes have included murder, rape, torture and attempted genocide.

IIRC, Scrappy Doo is listed as Condemned by History, even if his entry is listed under "series".

Edited by magnumtropus on Dec 22nd 2021 at 4:20:47 PM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#2182: Dec 22nd 2021 at 6:31:10 AM

How widespread is the backlash against Xander?

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2183: Dec 24th 2021 at 1:51:34 AM

Yeah, how big is the backlash? The backlash against Scrappy-Doo is so big that The Scrappy was named after him.

Someoneman Since: Nov, 2011
#2184: Dec 24th 2021 at 7:35:37 AM

I wrote this example about a game that used to be well-loved but is now hated, but then I noticed that most of the comments on the linked video talk about how people miss the original version, and only hate the game due to changes made later, so I'm no longer sure if it counts or not.


  • 2016's The Culling was one of the first games in the Battle Royale Game genre, and was well-liked for its focus on player skill, crafting, and melee combat. Unfortunately, the developers, Xaviant, listened to player feedback too well, implementing suggestions without considering if they would truly be for the better, causing opinion of the game to worsen. To make matters worse, the launch of BR juggernauts PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds and Fortnite siphoned what little playerbase The Culling still had, leading to the game shutting down so Xaviant could work on a sequel. Said sequel, to put it shortly, could not be described as anything other than a disaster, and was shut down a mere eight days later. Afterwards, the first Culling launched again, in a free-to-play state, with most of the unpopular changes reverted, but it was not a success and also shut down due to not making back its server costs. What truly made The Culling Condemned By History, however, was its third version, Origins, which dropped the second version's free to play status and added Match Tokens, a currency that was required to play a multiplayer match and could be bought with Microtransactionsnote . The sheer consumer-unfriendliness of this system brought The Culling huge amounts of criticism and destroyed whatever scraps of a reputation it still had. Nowadays, few people have anything good to say about The Culling beyond "it was good when it first launched, but the devs ruined it." This video details covers The Culling's rise and fall in more detail.

It might instead go under "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny (due to later BR games changing what is expected of the genre) or Overshadowed by Controversy (due to the backlash over the Match Token system).

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#2185: Dec 24th 2021 at 8:55:16 AM

FWIW, I found this on YMMV.Buffy The Vampire Slayer under Base-Breaking Character:

  • Xander is easily the biggest example of this in recent years; he is either the lovable Butt-Monkey and Heart of the Slayer Machine, or a hypocritical jerk who is way too judgmental of Buffy whenever she screws up, especially in regards to Angel and Spike — or any other guy she's interested in, for that matter, even when it's none of his business. There's also some debate as to whether his preoccupation with sex is just a normal teenage straight guy's disposition or a creepy lecherous qualitynote .

Assuming this entry is accurate and he still has a significant portion of fans who like him, then I'd say he doesn't qualify for Condemned by History status.

chucknormie Meh. from DEMACIA! Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Meh.
#2186: Dec 24th 2021 at 11:17:42 AM

Two more possible anime/light novel examples: The Familiar Of Zero and Baka And Test Summon The Beasts. Both huge in the late 2000s, but to say their humor and gender politics haven't aged well is...quite the understatement.

"Blowing it up always works" -RIP Goblin Boommaster, 2014-2015
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#2187: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:07:27 AM

They also have to be condemned in Japan, their home country. Otherwise it's Values Dissonance.

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#2188: Dec 27th 2021 at 11:33:40 AM

The Culling does not fit CbH if the original is still regarded as good, I agree SiUf and ObC are better.

"Criticism of SAO" would be awkward as an entry; it suggests SAO itself is Vindicated, but that doesn't work because it always had a fandom. It's more that as the more rabid fans fade from the memory, the lambasting it was given as a response to those fans looks quaint.

The Familiar Of Zero had always attracted plenty of derision; its negative attention is more because it is seen as the progenitor of the Shana Clone and modern isekais, both of which have wide hatedoms. On the other hand some parts of it have aged well, like the world-building and the secondary cast, making it an Unbuilt Trope of isekai. Baka And Test, I don't know... I hated the harem shenanigans, but then I hated them precisely because they were so clichéd, so it wasn't much worse that other ecchi comedies. Even the "boy looks like a girl" gags are not more transphobic than in, say,Steins;Gate.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#2189: Dec 27th 2021 at 4:29:45 PM

For The Culling, that definitely sounds like an Condemned by History description, not an "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny or Overshadowed by Controversy description, so launch it.

Eh, good enough.
SkylaNoivern Since: Sep, 2016
#2190: Dec 28th 2021 at 8:09:43 AM

New Jack Swing is listed in the music section, but the entry itself states that it fell off because of Hype Backlash and that there's modern songs heavily influenced by the genre. I'd also argue that Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas having a new jack swing radio station might make it seem more like a case of falling off (granted, the game is set in 1992, but it came out in 2004).

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2191: Dec 28th 2021 at 8:30:32 AM

[up] I still hear Bobby Brown and Bell Biv DeVoe on the 90s station on satellite radio. I've heard "My Prerogative" by the former inside of stores as well. There's still an audience there. Cut.

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bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
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#2192: Dec 28th 2021 at 4:53:47 PM

Speaking of the music page, I find myself genuinely curious as to whether or not Be Here Now truly applies, if only based on the fact that its initial rave reviews are well known in hindsight to have been an attempt by critics to compensate for their skepticism towards Oasis' massively-successful first two albums, rather than being the product of genuinely positive reception. If anything, I think Hype Backlash more adequately explains what happened with that album, and that trope doesn't allow on-page examples (plus a Hype Backlash point about it is already present on YMMV.Be Here Now).

Edited by bowserbros on Dec 28th 2021 at 4:58:15 AM

Be kind.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2193: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:22:55 PM

[up] 100% agreed. I was iffy myself when I saw that entry. Genre Killer even claims that Be Here Now's massive failure contributed to the death of Britpop as a genre. The entry can probably go.

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bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
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#2194: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:58:10 PM

[up]Alright, took it out and cited this thread.

Be kind.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#2195: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:13:04 PM

You know, I saw a post in the hindsight cleanup thread that got me wondering if Fred meets the criteria. On the one hand, I never see anyone talk about it anymore except in the context of asking why the show was popular to begin with; on the other, there were a lot of people who hated it even back in its heyday.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#2196: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:19:47 PM

Fred has been discussed a lot. Personally I'm not sure because even back in his hayday he was extremely divisive.

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magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#2197: Jan 6th 2022 at 5:49:07 PM

Should we put Fred as a resolved item? This isn't the first time someone tried to bring him up. Like a brief statement saying that he doesn't count for this trope and why

Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 6th 2022 at 5:49:58 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2198: Jan 6th 2022 at 5:52:12 PM

IDK if there's been any consensus, though. Just brief discussions that immediately peter out.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#2199: Jan 6th 2022 at 10:46:32 PM

When it comes to Fred, its reputation is complicated in a way that I don't think would qualify for this trope. There was that recent video by Quinton Reviews here, which explores the lore and history of Fred that saw plenty of viewers appreciate it in a new light. Obviously that didn't change everyone's minds, but it might signal that the negative feeling isn't universal.

What also helps is that the creator and actor behind Fred, Lucas Cruikshank, does have a consistently positive reputation. There's been no real drama about him or what he's done like there's been for other YouTubers, and he's even reprised the Fred characters a few times on TikTok to a positive, nostalgic audience of Gen-Zers.

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#2200: Jan 17th 2022 at 11:02:50 AM

So, I've been watching this video, and I thought of this thread. With so much Sturgeon's Law, underwhelming performance of the last adaptations of books, and real life politics that hit close to home, does the Young Adult Dystopia genre fit this trope?

There hasn't been any new YA novel hype, unlike Twilight, and with the trope's 5 year criteria, I feel like this feels like it fits?

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