Condemned by History cleanup thread

This entry was recently added:

• Shaq Fu was never a popular game, but when it was released in 1994, it received an average reception. Now, it makes many "Worst Games Ever" lists, with its ridiculous Audience-Alienating Premise^note Shaquille O'Neal, a famous Real Life basketball player, visits a parallel dimension to defeat a Sealed Evil in a Can. A basketball player as the star of a non-sports game was never going to attract much of an audience. and awful collision detection^note which is especially bad for a Fighting Game being particularly cited for criticism.

This does not seem like an example. The entry states that it was "never a popular game", which is already a red flag since this trope requires that something be mostly loved before it hits this trope. Furthermore, the entry mostly seems to be here to complain about Shaq Fu, particularly the language used. Should the entry be cut, rewritten, or left alone?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Nov 16th 2021 at 11:57:53 AM

I feel it can be removed; the way I understood Condemned by History was that it required a fairly high contrast in popularity between then and now, be it through lasting commercial success, initial critical and public praise, etc, before later being regarded by the majority of people as terrible. Shaq Fu doesn't follow that model well enough from the looks of it.

Thanks. I have removed the example.

I'm going to move Last Tango in Paris to Overshadowed by Controversy after this message. As noted, the entry is more focus on behind the scene incident. Plus, the troper who added it never come to this thread despite being notified and made some other edits afterward.

So I dont know if this is the right place to discuss this, but do you think cringe compilations from You Tube can be mentioned in Web Originals? Im seeing a lot of backlash against it now despite still being popular.

Were they ever well liked? I’m pretty sure they were always seen as bad and lazy content that steals other people’s videos for what amounts to bullying.

I was doing the rounds looking for Tropes that could use a round of TRS and came across Condemned by History. Despite your valiant efforts in this cleanup thread, it remains one of the worst complaining magnets on the site. It seems like Flame Bait incarnate and it'd attract general Hate Dumb and rubbing salt in the wounds of smaller fandoms. Today's examples could also become tomorrow's Popularity Polynomial too. Personally, I don't think that anything where its very nature has it so every single example is complaining is worth keeping around on the site. What's y'all's thoughts on a TV Tropes without Condemned by History (or possibly as a No Examples Please page)?

Unless there are significant edit wars on the main trope page and their are lots of egregious wicks on other pages, I don't think there's much to worry about.

Plus, we're still in the cleanup phase. Not all the bad examples have been cut yet, but that doesn't mean the trope is still flawed.

I think it's fine to keep around because it documents an interesting phenomenon, in addition to what despoa said.

Now for the reason I'm here: this newly-added example.

• Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 1 was released in response to the fans' desire to see a Genesis-style Sonic game. At the time of its release, the game got good reviews, but as time went on, the game has been derided for its poor physics, its visuals, and awkward music. Sonic Mania would later be another attempt to make a classic Sonic game, and did everything so well that Sonic 4 would eventually be buried and forgotten.

I may be misremembering, but wasn't there a case of Broken Base and Critical Dissonance from the start, and didn't these factors contribute to the relatively poor performance of Episode II that killed the sub-series?

I think the game's reception has dropped a bit due to Seinfeld Is Unfunny (in this case later Sonic games doing classic segments better), but that it's not enough for Condemned by History status.

I don't know, I remember it getting good reviews back then, then suddenly after Mania came out everyone started treating it as the 2D equivalent of 06 and Forces.

It did get good reviews from critics. The question is whether the initial fan response was positive enough to warrant Condemned by History status. I'm sure I've seen some Critical Dissonance, but maybe that was later on.

As someone who was there for its release back in 2010, I remember the fan response at the time was mixed, at best. People especially took umbrage with its new physics system, which didn't match the Genesis games at all. There was also outcry at its wonky art style, and its use of modern Sonic mechanics where they didn't fit. Then there were the pettier nitpicks, like that infamous video of that guy who was mad that they were using the modern Sonic's design (crying about "green eyes!" was even a meme at the time because of examples like that).

At the very least, the response was muted enough that there was only one more episode, then Sega just moved on from it.

Edited by harryhenry on Nov 23rd 2021 at 6:15:12 AM

This entry was on the page before and I heard this same reasoning. Episode 1 was divisive and ultimately quickly forgotten when all the remaining episodes came out.

I took a read of Super Size Me the other day and I'm wondering if it counts as this trope. When it came out it brought attention to the dangers of excessive fast food consumption and was shown as an educational movie. Nowadays however, its generally mocked for its Captain Obvious Aesop, the veracity of Morgan Spurlock's experiment (with the film Fat Head debunking a good chunk of the experiment), and the fact Spurlock has been accused of sexual misconduct.

...and the fact that Spurlock drank large quantities of alcohol off-screen during the period he was eating fast food.

, ...and was also a vegetarian, which gives his infamous reactions more context.

Basically yeah, I'd say it counts. I don't know if it's still showing in health classes, but even if it is I'm not sure how many are still buying into its ideas.

Edited by harryhenry on Dec 11th 2021 at 3:22:45 AM

I was shown Super Size Me in my health class in high school.

...Then again, my health teacher was also a bit of an oddball who showed us a documentary about marijuana legalization directed by Joe Rogan, so I'm not sure that class is the best source for that claim.

I agree that Super Size Me should be added.

We had Super Size Me 2, which came out around the time he admitted to committing sexual misconduct during the #MeToo movement and committed career suicide. Nobody I knew saw it and nobody talked about it. Not sure if this means anything in regards to the thread topic, but it's something that I think warrants mentioning.

Edited by despoa on Dec 10th 2021 at 11:07:44 AM

We could probably mention that in a potential entry, namely how it failed. Honestly the documentary is just stupid and pointless. It’s like having an entire documentary about how smoking 5 packs of cigarettes a day for a month causes you severe respiratory problems. Like what do you think was gonna happen? Him failing to mention his alcohol binges and the economic factors that lead to people eating fast food doesn’t help its credibility.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Dec 10th 2021 at 11:24:18 AM

I mean, it's meant to portray a message of what not to do, so...

On top of that, some non-fast-food restaurants are even worse than fast food. I believe The Cheesecake Factory had a menu item at one point that had over 3,000 calories.

Anyway, I think Super Size Me isn't Condemned by History because it isn't exactly hated per se, it's just forgotten.

I wonder if there's a trope for forgotten works, like Forgotten By History or something. I know that technically everything gets forgotten, but I mean like going from mega hit to completely forgotten. It might help with this trope's misuse, and it could also be reworked into a supertrope to Condemned by History, Popularity Polynomial, Overshadowed by Controversy, etc. Unfortunately I'm not sure how tropable such an idea is, and I fear that it may attract troping of non-tropable things. What does everyone else think?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Dec 11th 2021 at 8:11:16 AM

You can try proposing it at the Trope Launch Pad.

I wouldn't say it's forgotten, the aforementioned screenings in health classes have kept it enough in the public eye. And I'd say it has gotten enough of a genuine backlash to its quality and the points raised to say that it's still been Condemned, not Forgotten.

Edited by harryhenry on Dec 12th 2021 at 3:24:34 AM