Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:
- The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
- Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.
Let's go!
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM
Reading the entry, it focuses less on Ren and Stimpy and more on John K himself and how he's no longer viewed nearly as highly as he used to be (with even his more well-liked earlier work being credited to Bob Camp), hence why it's under "creators".
Speaking of, would it be appropriate to list David Irving as Condemned by History?
He's a historian of World War II who used to be widely respected for his knowledge of Nazi Germany and ability to find historical documentation... but then he embraced Holocaust denial in the late 1980s, making him persona non grata, and his body of work is now viewed in a significantly less positive light.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 17th 2021 at 12:23:57 PM
The only thing I have an issue with that is well, the Franchise Original Sin part: Namely, the name. If the flaws were apparent in one creator's work yet is much more prevalent in another work that isn't a franchise, why is it still called that?
Eh, good enough.
I mean, long ago in the thread High Crate (who I think created the original "man on the street" rule that got gutted in TRS) said that we don't trope real life people and that that applies here, but that troper has since been banned and this trope's criteria has been expanded through TRS.
Maybe we should go to the Real Life section cleanup and do a vote to see if Real Life people such as politicians, historians. etc. should be allowed?
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 17th 2021 at 6:58:37 AM
Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Ah. Well in that case, go right ahead.
I still want to do a vote in the Real Life thread about this. Should I?
Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallHmm... mind if I take some time to think before I answer the question of bringing this up in the NRLEP thread?
Anyway, here's my proposed write-up for Irving, under the "Authors" section of the literature folder:
- Nonfiction author David Irving was once a respected "maverick" historian of World War II, widely praised for his knowledge of Nazi Germany and ability to find historical documents. While some of his claims were disputed by professional historians, critical and popular opinion of him was generally positive. However, things started to shift in the late 1970s, when he began promoting historical negationism. In his 1977 book Hitler's War, he claimed that Adolf Hitler merely used anti-Semitism opportunistically to get elected and had no knowledge of The Holocaust, as well as blaming Winston Churchill for the war's escalation and characterizing the German invasion of the Soviet Union as a preemptive strike intended to prevent an impending Soviet attack. This book's critical reception was resoundingly negative, and marked a turning point for his literary output. While his books continued to sell well, historians and critics began to criticize the inaccuracies, misrepresentations and biases present in them. Over time, Irving's claims about the Holocaust became increasingly controversial, culminating in endorsing outright Holocaust denial when he testified at the 1988 trial of German-Canadian Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel. His testimony and subsequent legal battles completely destroyed his reputation outside of Holocaust denier circles, and many of his earlier works were re-evaluated in a more jaundiced light. When the fall of the Iron Curtain enabled access to materials that disproved many of his claims about World War II and the Cold War (notably definitively proving that his estimates for the Dresden bombing's death toll were greatly exaggerated), serious questions were raised about his methodology and research, and this combined with many unsavory facts about him coming to light means that his work is no longer considered serious good-faith scholarship, with even the most charitable readings of his bibliography saying that all of it is slipshod and bias-ridden at best.
The entry is a bit of a Wall of Text. Maybe it could be chopped down a bit? I definitely think Irving fits, I just think the entry needs to be shortened a bit.
If you and everyone else thinks the entry is fine as is, I'll concede. Perhaps it needs to be wordy in this case given the, well, history of Irving and his Holocaust denial.
the geocities example from a few pages back, that was one i added to in the second half and i'll take the blame for that. the first half is an accurate condemned by history example, but since time has gone by and people have looked back on geocities more fondly, i updated the entry accordingly, which ends up making it less of a straight example. i'm not so sure what it would fall under now. it's not quite Popularity Polynomial or Vindicated by History, more just "people have come to respect the positive traits of this now that it's gone, even though it's on the whole agreed to be outdated"
NVM
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 24th 2021 at 7:55:55 AM
Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallI just removed this entry.
- In the late 2000s, Fred was one of the most popular YouTube channels and characters around, becoming the first ever YouTuber to get over 1 million subscribers. By the mid 2010s, very few would ever admit enjoying him. Even Lucas Cruikshank seems to dislike his creation now, largely due to his unremarkable post-Fred work and people still remembering him only as Fred.
Reason: No mention of the backlash at all. The entry claims "very few would ever admit enjoying him" but without any explanation. And its creator dislike it for being Tough Act to Follow, not because it's bad.
I do feel Fred is a geniune example, to be honest. No one talks about him anymore, and any Fred-derivatives end up with low ratings. It also helps that not everyone knew Fred - at best, some will know of him because of Icarly.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.Added by: H Barnill
- The past seasons of Western Animation/South Park were often considered to be one of the best pieces of American satire of the 21st century, winning many Emmys, among numerous accolades, and general acclaim from critics over its themes and its humor. In recent years, they've been subjected to criticism over what people say of the show punching down on the marginalized (minorities, women, LGBT people, disabled people, etc), frequent Golden Mean Fallacy and messaging that various outlets, critics, and those in the industry, such as Lindsay Ellis, Dana Schwartz, Honest Trailers, Bob Chipman, the AV Club and Vice, took to saying that its seemingly Central Theme of "caring about anything in life makes you stupid", implying false equivalencies and hypocrisies as a means to be the devil's advocate on certain taboo issues without any prior research and dates certain episodes after or even during the time of airing.
This sounds like "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny to me, because South Park is still a popular show. Not to mention, "past seasons" is a very vague description.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back."In recent years..." = a violation of Examples Are Not Recent. The same troper also put a CBH entry on the show's YMMV page that's the same as the one on the CBH page but with an additional line:
This is married with the show's recent lack of success at the Emmys, the viewership not being as high as before, and the mixed-to-negative reviews toward the recent seasons.
Edited by Shadow8411 on Jul 30th 2021 at 11:47:58 AM
"Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here."
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 17th 2021 at 2:54:41 PM
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