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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1951: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:54:13 AM

[up] I've heard that The Ren & Stimpy Show has been affected a bit, and I know that the comment section for the music video for "Weird Al" Yankovic's song "Close But No Cigar" (which was animated by John K) is filled with jokes about how creepy the video is now knowing what we know about Kricfalusi, so his work isn't completely spotless. That said, they're doing a reboot of R&S, and it still seems to have some popularity in the animation world, so I would argue his work isn't Condemned by History.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 17th 2021 at 2:54:41 PM

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ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#1952: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:58:54 AM

Reading the entry, it focuses less on Ren and Stimpy and more on John K himself and how he's no longer viewed nearly as highly as he used to be (with even his more well-liked earlier work being credited to Bob Camp), hence why it's under "creators".

Speaking of, would it be appropriate to list David Irving as Condemned by History?

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1953: Jul 17th 2021 at 12:08:34 PM

Who? What's his deal?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#1954: Jul 17th 2021 at 12:22:10 PM

[up] He's a historian of World War II who used to be widely respected for his knowledge of Nazi Germany and ability to find historical documentation... but then he embraced Holocaust denial in the late 1980s, making him persona non grata, and his body of work is now viewed in a significantly less positive light.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 17th 2021 at 12:23:57 PM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1955: Jul 17th 2021 at 12:26:15 PM

We have a section for real life people? Because if so, he is approved in my book.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
chucknormie Meh. from DEMACIA! Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Meh.
#1956: Jul 17th 2021 at 1:22:58 PM

Based on the responses, I'm assuming my entry for Oreimo is okay. Adding it now.

"Blowing it up always works" -RIP Goblin Boommaster, 2014-2015
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#1957: Jul 17th 2021 at 3:13:30 PM

The only thing I have an issue with that is well, the Franchise Original Sin part: Namely, the name. If the flaws were apparent in one creator's work yet is much more prevalent in another work that isn't a franchise, why is it still called that?

Eh, good enough.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#1958: Jul 17th 2021 at 3:40:36 PM

[up] Because Tropes Are Flexible.

Any objections to me making a write-up of David Irving, by the way?

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1959: Jul 17th 2021 at 3:57:32 PM

[up] I mean, long ago in the thread High Crate (who I think created the original "man on the street" rule that got gutted in TRS) said that we don't trope real life people and that that applies here, but that troper has since been banned and this trope's criteria has been expanded through TRS.

Maybe we should go to the Real Life section cleanup and do a vote to see if Real Life people such as politicians, historians. etc. should be allowed?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 17th 2021 at 6:58:37 AM

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ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#1960: Jul 17th 2021 at 4:00:15 PM

[up] I'm thinking more about detailing Irving's body of work than him as a person, just to be clear.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1961: Jul 17th 2021 at 4:01:17 PM

[up] Ah. Well in that case, go right ahead.

I still want to do a vote in the Real Life thread about this. Should I?

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ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#1962: Jul 17th 2021 at 4:48:03 PM

Hmm... mind if I take some time to think before I answer the question of bringing this up in the NRLEP thread?

Anyway, here's my proposed write-up for Irving, under the "Authors" section of the literature folder:

  • Nonfiction author David Irving was once a respected "maverick" historian of World War II, widely praised for his knowledge of Nazi Germany and ability to find historical documents. While some of his claims were disputed by professional historians, critical and popular opinion of him was generally positive. However, things started to shift in the late 1970s, when he began promoting historical negationism. In his 1977 book Hitler's War, he claimed that Adolf Hitler merely used anti-Semitism opportunistically to get elected and had no knowledge of The Holocaust, as well as blaming Winston Churchill for the war's escalation and characterizing the German invasion of the Soviet Union as a preemptive strike intended to prevent an impending Soviet attack. This book's critical reception was resoundingly negative, and marked a turning point for his literary output. While his books continued to sell well, historians and critics began to criticize the inaccuracies, misrepresentations and biases present in them. Over time, Irving's claims about the Holocaust became increasingly controversial, culminating in endorsing outright Holocaust denial when he testified at the 1988 trial of German-Canadian Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel. His testimony and subsequent legal battles completely destroyed his reputation outside of Holocaust denier circles, and many of his earlier works were re-evaluated in a more jaundiced light. When the fall of the Iron Curtain enabled access to materials that disproved many of his claims about World War II and the Cold War (notably definitively proving that his estimates for the Dresden bombing's death toll were greatly exaggerated), serious questions were raised about his methodology and research, and this combined with many unsavory facts about him coming to light means that his work is no longer considered serious good-faith scholarship, with even the most charitable readings of his bibliography saying that all of it is slipshod and bias-ridden at best.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1963: Jul 18th 2021 at 5:11:45 AM

[up] The entry is a bit of a Wall of Text. Maybe it could be chopped down a bit? I definitely think Irving fits, I just think the entry needs to be shortened a bit.

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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1964: Jul 18th 2021 at 5:17:53 AM

While is wordy, the entry is fine as it is for me. It's explicative enough and tells me the whole story.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1965: Jul 18th 2021 at 5:19:29 AM

[up] If you and everyone else thinks the entry is fine as is, I'll concede. Perhaps it needs to be wordy in this case given the, well, history of Irving and his Holocaust denial.

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rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#1966: Jul 18th 2021 at 9:18:02 AM

Yeah, I think that Irving entry is as long as it needs to be.

Keet cleanup
NoUsername she's only programmed to be very nice Since: May, 2012
she's only programmed to be very nice
#1967: Jul 24th 2021 at 4:40:52 PM

the geocities example from a few pages back, that was one i added to in the second half and i'll take the blame for that. the first half is an accurate condemned by history example, but since time has gone by and people have looked back on geocities more fondly, i updated the entry accordingly, which ends up making it less of a straight example. i'm not so sure what it would fall under now. it's not quite Popularity Polynomial or Vindicated by History, more just "people have come to respect the positive traits of this now that it's gone, even though it's on the whole agreed to be outdated"

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#1968: Jul 24th 2021 at 4:55:37 PM

NVM

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 24th 2021 at 7:55:55 AM

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toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011
#1969: Jul 24th 2021 at 5:15:54 PM

[up][up]I'd say a similar thing can be said about Myspace.

Kuruni (Long Runner)
#1970: Jul 27th 2021 at 8:58:19 PM

I just removed this entry.

Reason: No mention of the backlash at all. The entry claims "very few would ever admit enjoying him" but without any explanation. And its creator dislike it for being Tough Act to Follow, not because it's bad.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1971: Jul 28th 2021 at 5:19:14 AM

I do feel Fred is a geniune example, to be honest. No one talks about him anymore, and any Fred-derivatives end up with low ratings. It also helps that not everyone knew Fred - at best, some will know of him because of Icarly.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Kuruni (Long Runner)
#1972: Jul 29th 2021 at 6:42:56 AM

The problem is that there's no mention of backlash, just that it isn't as popular as it was. See the top of this thread.

Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre.

Edited by Kuruni on Jul 29th 2021 at 8:43:46 PM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1973: Jul 30th 2021 at 9:43:26 AM

Added by: H Barnill

  • The past seasons of Western Animation/South Park were often considered to be one of the best pieces of American satire of the 21st century, winning many Emmys, among numerous accolades, and general acclaim from critics over its themes and its humor. In recent years, they've been subjected to criticism over what people say of the show punching down on the marginalized (minorities, women, LGBT people, disabled people, etc), frequent Golden Mean Fallacy and messaging that various outlets, critics, and those in the industry, such as Lindsay Ellis, Dana Schwartz, Honest Trailers, Bob Chipman, the AV Club and Vice, took to saying that its seemingly Central Theme of "caring about anything in life makes you stupid", implying false equivalencies and hypocrisies as a means to be the devil's advocate on certain taboo issues without any prior research and dates certain episodes after or even during the time of airing.

This sounds like "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny to me, because South Park is still a popular show. Not to mention, "past seasons" is a very vague description.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Shadow8411 Since: Jul, 2019
#1974: Jul 30th 2021 at 11:46:52 AM

"In recent years..." = a violation of Examples Are Not Recent. The same troper also put a CBH entry on the show's YMMV page that's the same as the one on the CBH page but with an additional line:

This is married with the show's recent lack of success at the Emmys, the viewership not being as high as before, and the mixed-to-negative reviews toward the recent seasons.

Edited by Shadow8411 on Jul 30th 2021 at 11:47:58 AM

Delibirda from Splatsville Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: I wanna be your dog
#1975: Jul 30th 2021 at 11:58:10 AM

"Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here."

"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”

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