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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#1526: May 19th 2019 at 7:08:00 PM

[up] The name isn't literal. In another case of that, Older Than Dirt is a phrase meaning really old (in this case, before the ancient Greeks), not literally older than dirt, which humans aren't.

I still think that, even using disco itself as an example example (even though it's no longer an example, but it still was) 99% percent of the examples don't fit, and my suspicion that this trope doesn't even exist is getting bigger and bigger.

Edited by Lymantria on May 19th 2019 at 10:09:48 AM

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#1527: May 21st 2019 at 2:17:12 PM

[up]How can it not exist if examples were approved? As I mentioned before, this thread voted to keep it, but it was pulled based on the discussion page of YMMV.Bleach saying that "People who now dislike it don't claim they never did". I'd rather redefine the trope than cut it; perhaps that should be removed as a requirement? I'm also still of the opinion that people are taking "universally popular" too literally; the "man on the street test" needs to go the way of the dodo. It should only have to be popular within the medium's fan community.

Keet cleanup
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#1528: May 21st 2019 at 8:27:39 PM

Yeah I kind of agree that this trope as currently applied is overly narrow.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#1529: May 22nd 2019 at 8:23:18 AM

[tup] for rjd's observation that the trope feels narrowed down too much unnecessarily.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 22nd 2019 at 11:24:20 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1530: May 22nd 2019 at 12:17:36 PM

Agreed the man on the street test is too narrow.

Oissu!
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#1531: May 23rd 2019 at 12:17:53 AM

It felt it leaned towards the mainstream views on what's popular.

And in this day and age, everyone has their own cliques and circles.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on May 24th 2019 at 3:21:33 AM

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1532: May 23rd 2019 at 4:02:33 AM

[up]This in particular strikes me as a very compelling point.

However, IMO the main benefit of the 'man on the street' idea is that it prevents the page from lapsing into a list of any work that had a big fall in popularity. I think that's worth keeping in mind.

Though really, I think the fundamental issue with Deader Than Disco (and a lot of audience reactions in general) is that it's trying to establish a permanency of opinions. That's not how things actually work, as disco demonstrates.

Edited by nrjxll on May 23rd 2019 at 6:04:43 AM

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1533: May 23rd 2019 at 2:34:32 PM

The "man on the street" test was instituted because of how many people would try to justify blatant shoehorning and Fan Myopia by saying things like, "No, trust me, Chikorita x Celebi totally was ubiquitously popular in the Pokemon yaoi slashfic community from late-2001 to mid-2002!"

Just look at the latest entry in the edit history. I have no doubt that, at some convention somewhere, these Yaoi Paddle things were somewhat popular. But I had a job in the mid-2000s that took me to 3-4 anime conventions a year, and I've never heard of the damn things. Even within the relatively narrow confines of "anime conventions," there is no way that they were ubiquitously, unavoidably popular in the way DTD requires.

The "man on the street" test is a common-sense measure to prevent nonsense like that from clogging up the page, as has happened in the past.

Edited by HighCrate on May 23rd 2019 at 2:35:34 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1534: May 23rd 2019 at 2:52:44 PM

I mean I'd probably vote to mention yaoi paddles, because they would qualify under all the other criteria except man on the street (because a man on the street likely wouldn't give a shit about conventions period). I'm a congoer and I and everyone else I know has heard of the infamy of the paddle. I have no idea how you missed them. I also think permanency is a big part of the problem of this trope, because things naturally fade into obscurity.

Edited by PhiSat on May 23rd 2019 at 3:54:13 AM

Oissu!
Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1535: Jun 1st 2019 at 3:21:02 PM

Is the entry on emo and scene accurate? I keep on seeing posts online that imply emo is still a thing. Also, emo and scene were hated even in the 2000s, so can they even count?

Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1536: Jun 5th 2019 at 2:28:59 PM

Would FMV games count? Here's an example I wrote up:

  • In the early 1990s, Full Motion Video games were highly praised for their realistic graphics and movie quality clips. This success was short-lived as the American government soon began their hearings against video games, with Night Trap being one of the main games involved in the controversy due to its violent theme combined with its usage of video clips. The final nail in the genre's coffin was improvements in 3D game graphics during the late 1990s, making full-motion obsolete. When full-motion video gets discussed anymore, they're only mocked as a short-lived fad. They're typically remembered for having low quality, B-movie-like clips and clunky gameplay.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jun 6th 2019 at 8:55:05 AM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1537: Jun 5th 2019 at 5:12:23 PM

Hmm, dunno. FMV games were indeed a big trend that no one takes seriously anymore, but I do think there's a fair amount of 'ironic' fondness for them online. I also wouldn't focus on any particular publisher.

Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#1538: Jun 5th 2019 at 7:18:29 PM

If there’s an ironic fondness for FMV games, I personally haven’t seen any examples of it other than Night Trap. It’s worth mentioning how the main trope page for Deader Than Disco reads:

“It may get revived decades later as So Bad, It's Good or by Bile Fascination, but it's unlikely to be popular on its own merits ever again.”

Based on that, having an ironic following might not completely disqualify FMV games from counting.

rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#1539: Jun 6th 2019 at 8:59:32 AM

I believe FMV games were previously cut.

Keet cleanup
Anddrix Since: Oct, 2014
#1540: Jun 9th 2019 at 3:43:02 AM

This was recently added to the DeaderThanDisco page:

  • Car-friendly cities became popular with city planners and governments in the 1920s when car-ownership took off. City governments around the world removed their streetcar systems, which were once the backbone of many cities and narrowed the sidewalks to make way for cars. This was put on hold in many cities due to the Great Depression and Second World War. Car-friendly cities took off again during the post-war boom. Car companies lobbied governments to build highways and wider roads through cities, which led to demolitions of neighbourhoods and historic buildings and neglecting public transport, making cities almost unlivable for pedestrians and cyclists. Car-friendly cities became unpopular with the general public by the time the 1970s came along and were ultimately killed off by the oil crises of the decade as well as the rise of enviromentalism. Today, cities around the world have now banned cars from the city centres and have invested in public transport for environmental reasons and to decongest the roads. Car-friendly cities are now very much a thing of the past and are viewed as one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1541: Jun 9th 2019 at 5:25:45 AM

We discussed and rejected that nonsense all the way back in 2016. The person who re-added it is almost certainly the same particularly persistent Single-Issue Wonk who was arguing for it back then, although they have different screen names. Did some checking, and the previous screen name isn't banned, so that's not technically against the rules, but it's still very sheisty.

I'm cutting the Architecture folder outright, it was all cut by thread consensus literally years ago and has been slowly being reintroduced since then. None of them are valid examples, never have been, never will be.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 9th 2019 at 5:30:45 AM

rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#1542: Jun 9th 2019 at 8:37:28 AM

This example seemed valid to me:

  • Brutalist architecture, as explained in this article. Buildings in this style were designed so that form followed function, their few windows and tons of unfinished concrete often making them look like fortresses, and they were indeed very durable and cheap to build, leading to the proliferation of brutalist structures in urban centers and on university campuses in the 1960s and '70s. However, while modernist structures from that same time period are still beloved today, brutalist structures aren't. For many people, they evoked the image of flood channels and highway overpasses, and before long they came to be seen as blights on the landscape. Furthermore, while they were easy to build and keep standing, keeping them looking decent was a different story altogether, as unfinished concrete has a tendency to crack and stain very easily, especially in humid climates (and the cracks let water in, further undermining the structure. Because of this, the Humanities Building at UW-Madison is infamous for FLOODING in the spring. Madison gets an average of 43 inches of snow in the winter, and when it melts, all that water has to go somewhere.) Finally, the proliferation of brutalist structures in the Eastern Bloc gave the style an indelible association with Soviet-style communism; many dystopian sci-fi films from the '70s and '80s used such buildings as symbols of the oppressive regime. Nowadays, "brutalist" is often used as a synonym for any ugly concrete building or public space, and few people still defend the style. To add insult to injury, quite a few brutalist structures were built to replace either the function of a building of a previous era of architecture or built in the place of a bombed out or torn down building of a previous style. Given that many of those styles have gained in public perception, just how anybody could ever consider this oppressive Soviet-style concrete hunk a better fit for the site/purpose than whatever it replaced is often another accusation leveled at brutalism, of which the style itself is innocent. It is unlikely that the building style will be respected or replicated again after the destruction of Grenfell Tower, London in 2017, in which the poorly-done claddingnote  was blamed for helping the fire escalate.

Also, what should be done about Bleach being cut despite this thread deciding to keep it?

Keet cleanup
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1543: Jun 10th 2019 at 2:22:29 PM

Pretty sure we already discussed and rejected mustaches years ago as well. That just popped up again; I've deleted it.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#1545: Jun 12th 2019 at 6:15:23 AM

I think the Brutalist architecture example seems legit, as it's the ultimate punching bag in architecture circles. Then again, are architectural styles too obscure to count?

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#1546: Jun 13th 2019 at 1:41:30 PM

[up]Brutalism is well-known within the field of architecture, should suffice.

Keet cleanup
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1547: Jun 13th 2019 at 7:11:26 PM

From what little I know, if any architectural style counts, Brutalism would be the one.

Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#1548: Jun 16th 2019 at 7:47:12 PM

On disco's entry in Deader Than Disco, I'm not so sure if this line is true: "Attacked on two sides and with a powerful image against it, disco was fading fast and completely dead in early 1981, and with it the fashions and styles related to or heavily associated with it (such as flared trousers)."

Anecdotally, I've heard of a lot of Americans liking disco well into the 1980s. A few paragraphs down it's also contradicted by mentions that disco faired better off in Europe into the 1980s.

GrigorII Since: Aug, 2011
#1549: Jun 18th 2019 at 8:36:41 AM

The Marvel Cinematic Universe has this entry

  • Deader Than Disco: The Netflix shows were initially met with widespread acclaim with the first and second seasons of Daredevil, first season of Jessica Jones, and first season of Luke Cage being huge successes. But once Iron Fist and the long-awaited The Defenders came out and were deemed underwhelming, things took a downward turn. Only the third season of Daredevil and first season of The Punisher were generally considered good, while the second seasons of The Punisher, Luke Cage, and Jessica Jones were all met with mixed to negative reactions, and the second season of Iron Fist was not enough of an improvement to save the show's reputation. On top of that, complaints about the Darker and Edgier natures of the shows began piling on despite having been praised before, and their lack of a solid connection to the rest of the MCU had everyone questioning whether or not the shows are even to be considered canon. By the time the new Disney+ shows were announced, all the Netflix shows got cancelled, and the third and final season of Jessica Jones proved even more divisive than the previous season, many people had come to consider the Netflix corner of the MCU as a failed experiment whose demise is for the best.

When someone does not mention why a show was cancelled, it is taken for granted that it was because of a low audience. This entry is misleading, as it does not mention the reason those shows were cancelled (all within some months), and then mention the surge of Disney+ as some unrelated event. Actually, Disney+ is the reason the shows were cancelled: as Disney/Marvel is starting a service that is a direct competitor to Netflix, Netflix cancels them simply out of spite. In short, they were Screwed by the Network. Also note that, regardless of reviews, Netflix rarely displays the numbers of people that see the shows, so we don't know if the audience decrease was huge or small (or if there was an audience decrease to begin with). We may mention that there is a petition in Change.org to "Save Daredevil" here, signed by 337025 people. Luke Cage has one here, 6817 people. There is also one to move the shows to Disney+ so they are still produced here, 23614 people. So clearly those shows still have a strong fanbase, regardless of the Netflix-Disney feud.

Ultimate Secret Wars
Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#1550: Jun 18th 2019 at 5:50:09 PM

It’s worth mentioning that at least the early seasons of the Marvel-Netflix shows are still highly regarded. If the entire sub-franchise was truly Deader Than Disco, those seasons would also be negatively viewed in retrospect. This example would be better suited for Seasonal Rot than Deader Than Disco. Furthermore, since the Defenders series of shows just recently ended, it’s too early to definitively state if there has been a lasting backlash. Definitely cut that example.


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